The lack of general availability of 3 phase power in the USA - Page 9
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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    Force? Lots of encouragements, certainly, but force?



    By the calculations here. Not everyone is connected to a coal-fired grid.

    But just for the sake of the discussion, let's take that as a true statement and examine it a bit further. Coal fired electricity is harmful, modern gas engines are also harmful, just less so.

    The answer is to stop or reduce the harm, if you really believe that. Do you?

    The argument is a red herring. Clean up the damn grid. Stop burning so many hydrocarbons.



    They live in a different place than you do and have different needs, so want a different rig. Would you commute to work a block away in a Kenworth? Of course not. Inappropriate. But if there were a 40klb load on a trailer that was sitting at home that needed to get to work, prob you would, otherwise you might walk or ride a bike.

    One size does not fit all.
    Force? Not quite yet, but you simply will not be able to buy an IC vehicle from many vendors within 8 years.

    How long do you think those companies will continue to supply repair parts?

    In the US, EVERYONE is connected to a coal fired grid. Every. Single. Customer. As long as they are connected to one of the actual multi-state "grids", not to an independent. Most are connected to a large area grid..

    Are there nuclear plants? Sure, but not for long, due to "greenies". Are there natural gas plants? Sure, for a while.

    Hows that solar power workin out for yah overnight?


    That is the time that most people charge their cars. The cars are in use during the day. At night, it's nuclear, coal or gas. End of story. No argument possible.

    After all the losses are considered, an IC engine is very competitive efficiency-wise to an electric car. Very possibly superior.

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    ^^^^

    Currently, the US grid uses coal for 20% of its power. It's been going down quite sharply, from 48% in 2008. A lot of that was probably the 'dash for gas' that a lot of the world has been seeing for the last 25 years. Combined cycle gas turbine/steam turbine units are cheap on capital, very fast to build and much more efficient than any coal fired unit apart from a small number of ultra supercritical units, which are a maintenance and capital cost nightmare.

    Electricity Mix - Our World in Data

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky7 View Post
    An interesting thread.

    Iím pretty simple in my electrical needs at my house. Reliable and inexpensive. Preferably with enough grunt to run my machines that are sub rosa in my garage.



    Iím happy paying less for electricity and having reliable single phase.
    I thought all Canadians had 3-Phase 600 volt service into their house....

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    ....At night, it's nuclear, coal or gas. End of story. No argument possible.
    ....
    I think those argumentative people that run the plant at Niagra Falls might have some issues with
    that statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    I think those argumentative people that run the plant at Niagra Falls might have some issues with
    that statement.
    You kidding? Argue? You don't REALLY think they'd do a damned thing but GRIN!

    Hydro power globally - a "renewable" since ancientest of times - might be down, now, to only 16% of global power.

    But it has been a right useful contributor.. all but TWO US states are onboard.. and for a "long time, already".

    You ever want to go "off grid" painlessly, there are abandoned mills for sale in some places as still have the water-rights and working mill-ponds. Bit of windcharger, THERMAL solar, VERY modest battery plant, "maybe" a tad of PV solar?

    Comfy!

    Also cheaper than building-out the goods to run thermal power plants ... off of forest fires... Speaking of "renewable energy", gifted by the "save the endangered dry-fuel-underbrush-beetle" tribes.


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    Speaking of dams, anyone taken a look at Hoover dam recently? Last I heard it's down to 66% generating capacity. Water level's been declining over the last 20 years.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Force? Not quite yet, but you simply will not be able to buy an IC vehicle from many vendors within 8 years.....
    The market rules, right? Build yer own, then. Now you know how people who want eleectric cars used to feel.

    ...
    In the US, EVERYONE is connected to a coal fired grid. Every. Single. Customer. As long as they are connected to one of the actual multi-state "grids", not to an independent. Most are connected to a large area grid....
    By the same token, you're connected to my utility's grid that's 100% renewable.

    Hows that solar power workin out for yah overnight?


    Other renewables work at night. Wind, landfill gas, hydro and yes, storage batteries, pumped water storage in addition to the sources you quote.

    ...That is the time that most people charge their cars. The cars are in use during the day. At night, it's nuclear, coal or gas. End of story. No argument possible..
    You're obviously wrong.

    One size does not fit all.

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    We already have 2 phase (SPLIT phase) to every residence, why not add a third leg and give all our heavy set appliances 2 more "kicks" around the run? Only improves efficiency!

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    The market rules, right? Build yer own, then. Now you know how people who want eleectric cars used to feel.



    By the same token, you're connected to my utility's grid that's 100% renewable.



    Other renewables work at night. Wind, landfill gas, hydro and yes, storage batteries, pumped water storage in addition to the sources you quote.



    You're obviously wrong.

    One size does not fit all.
    One size doesn't fit all, but dependability is dependability. AS LONG as "renewables" are actually "net positive" (ie, don't waste more than they attribute (we already see this as being FALSE with both photovoltaics and turbines)) why not?

    Nuclear is the ONLY carbon "friendly" energy source that is dependable and ALSO renewable (breeder reactors + waste fuel recycling). It's the only tech that is actually long term viable and currently available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    You kidding? Argue? You don't REALLY think they'd do a damned thing but GRIN!

    Hydro power globally - a "renewable" since ancientest of times - might be down, now, to only 16% of global power.

    But it has been a right useful contributor.. all but TWO US states are onboard.. and for a "long time, already".

    You ever want to go "off grid" painlessly, there are abandoned mills for sale in some places as still have the water-rights and working mill-ponds. Bit of windcharger, THERMAL solar, VERY modest battery plant, "maybe" a tad of PV solar?

    Comfy!

    Also cheaper than building-out the goods to run thermal power plants ... off of forest fires... Speaking of "renewable energy", gifted by the "save the endangered dry-fuel-underbrush-beetle" tribes.

    Now, couple that to a dependable power source, say a small scale thermal reactor or pebble bed buried in my property for when the rain doesn't fall and sun doesn't shine? I'm in.

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    I find it astounding that we arenít planning more hydro-electric dams!

    Itís clean energy, and the region with a dam gets the huge benefit of having a lake for leisure and tourism.

    Yes, people would have to be relocated, but they are now for roads and such when necessary.

    Why not more hydro??

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    I find it astounding that we aren’t planning more hydro-electric dams!

    It’s clean energy, and the region with a dam gets the huge benefit of having a lake for leisure and tourism.

    Yes, people would have to be relocated, but they are now for roads and such when necessary.

    Why not more hydro??
    Sir,

    It's a matter of available land mass and that which is accommodating to a reservoir. Ain't much left. STILL requires rainfall to keep up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    I find it astounding that we arenít planning more hydro-electric dams!

    Itís clean energy, and the region with a dam gets the huge benefit of having a lake for leisure and tourism.

    Yes, people would have to be relocated, but they are now for roads and such when necessary.

    Why not more hydro??

    Who needs more power and what do the water levels look like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    The market rules, right? Build yer own, then. Now you know how people who want eleectric cars used to feel.
    By the same token, you're connected to my utility's grid that's 100% renewable.
    Other renewables work at night. Wind, landfill gas, hydro and yes, storage batteries, pumped water storage in addition to the sources you quote.
    You're obviously wrong.

    One size does not fit all.
    "Obviously wrong?"

    You make me laugh at you.

    The "sources" you posted include what can only be described as "loads".

    Pumped hydro is a relatively severely inefficient source. And there is VERY little of it, because there is not much land suitable. I drive by one of those several times a year, it is south of me, on the way down to the Lesterville area. It failed very impressively a while back, but has been rebuilt. Efficiency is horrible, and run time is low.

    And, overnight it is a "load" since that is when it gets pumped up again, because that is when the power is cheap and available. Same with virtually every pumped storage plant..... just when you want it to SUPPLY power, it is DRAWING power.

    Batteries? I'm laughing again..... The energy density is so pathetically low in a battery at present, that they are only suitable for riding through a low wind period a few minutes long so that the utility has time to find generating capacity.

    Wind would work at night, except for the fact that winds are often low at night, unless there is a storm. I drive past some wind farms at night, and the turbines are usually not turning. Besides, wind must be backed up by fossil fuel capacity.

    Landfill gas is a source, but so minuscule in the scheme of things that it cannot supply meaningful power to thousands of cars charging overnight. Just forget about that one.

    Now we come to hydro........ To begin with, there is not much of it in vast areas of the country. And "starry-eyed greenies" just like you not only want to stop any more from being put in, they (you?) want to dynamite the dams that exist now.

    And there is that little issue of Lake Meade, and Oroville dam, where the remaining water is not able to support power generation for much longer. Hydro is no longer the reliable power it once was.

    You DID totally forget one source...... geothermal. But, at present, there is hardly any of it. We are 25 years from getting any meaningful output from that source. And, it is actually "fossil energy", not really a renewable.

    Nuclear could be done, but you "greenies" hate it so much that you killed the most promising development in nuclear energy, which, combined with using thorium, would provide many hundreds of years of power. That development also takes care of the vast majority of the "nuclear waste", since the reactors will "burn" the products down to a tiny fraction of the volume now generated (and truly "wasted", thanks to your silly laws).

    So, far from being "obviously wrong", I am "obviously correct". YOU are the one "obviously wrong" since some of your suggested sources are actually "drawing power" at the time you want them to "supply" it. And, your list simply does not have the megawatt hours to supply the load.

    In a way, I want you to succeed in shutting down all but renewable sources tomorrow. We'd see just how long you all would last.

    I'd have power, because my needs are small and we have a certain amount of solar and storage. Many "greenies" do not.

    Now, I do not claim that this is a permanent situation, or at least, that it has to be. Business profits, and the political situation suggest that progress will be slow, much TOO slow.

    I hope you like hot weather...........

    But it will take a LOT more than chanting "shut them down" to actually get to where there really IS a renewable power system that can act just like the existing fossil fuel power plants. Lots more work, and quite a few years.

    We knew about the problem 60-70 years ago, and nobody did anything about it. So, now we will get the consequences. I'd suppose about 1/3 of the population of the earth will die off, maybe as high as 2/3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    "Obviously wrong?"
    Well.. yazz.. this means you have been caught-out YET AGAIN..

    ..so now we gets another forty-page rationalization.

    All you really need is a more demanding Day Job, J.



    - Smith Mountain Lake // Lee Lake pumped storage JF WORKS!
    --- So do many others.

    - Geothermal is "current" renewable", not "fossil". It is generated by friction off the tidal effects kneading the planet.
    --- You should simply visit Iceland. It isn't hard. Just make a detour enroute to London, get a free overnight stay & meals, shopping discounts, free bus pass.. and still save a few bucks vs the non-stop air fare.

    If you look healthy and successful? You may even be invited to contribute to the sparse gene-pool. You'd have to know the pragmatic women of Iceland?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Well.. yazz.. this means you have been caught-out YET AGAIN..

    .................
    Nope......... sayin so don't make it so.

    Disprove the facts, and then we can talk.

    We have pumped storage here. It works too, but at a low efficiency. And it is used for peaking power, DURING THE DAY.... refilled at night.

    Geothermal of the scale needed to replace fossil fuel would need to be drilled deeper and tap core heat. Iceland? I've been there. Not many people, and hardly any industry by comparison. And they are in a super-duper spot for geothermal. List the states that have that sort of availability....... of enough power to supply the population.... it's a short list, buddy, very short.

    There really is no reliable overnight "no excuses" power other than fossil fuel for the majority of the country. Don't like that? Disprove it with facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Disprove it with facts.
    We did. Some time ago. The money followed those "facts", too.

    If tiny Iceland produces more primary Aluminum that the entire USA, might that "no industry" be yet-another indicator of your mental sloth?

    American Companies Still Make Aluminum. In Iceland. - The New York Times

    And those are just the NEW plants.

    I bought my locally-produced "Look" Icelandic cookware on one of my visits around 1989 or 1990.

    Between geothermal, hydro, and one of the best all-weather wind turbine designs yet made?

    The poor starving stone-age-illiterate bastards STILL don't have adequate access to "fossil fuels", and are dreadfully hard-done.

    NOT!

    "Oh, BTW"..Denmark went past the 50% mark on renewables a while ago.

    We don't NEED Sandalista-Buyed-in-ista cretins to "dictate" these improvements as a Green New STEAL!.

    Real humans with functioning brains find it PROFITABLE to "JFDI".

    .. as... where.. how... and WHEN.. it actually makes SENSE to do!

    That simple, really.

    Take the "hydrogen economy" as another. Really HARD to economically (and safely) store and transport Hydrogen economically.

    So some genius figured out a way to "park" the Hydrogen atoms by attaching them to another material. Using atoms of a common substance, and cheap.

    It's called "Carbon". Marry 'em up? You get something called "Hydrocarbons".

    Synthetics. Recyled, even. Not JUST "fossil".

    Go figure it was never all that hard after all? Even microbes do it!

    Wasn't TOO long ago... as a percentage of civilization's long run...that all of humankind lived... "off grid"..

    And largely without central "governments"...

    Go figure it was ever that EASY!

    Last edited by thermite; 07-30-2021 at 04:33 AM.

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    The reason the government is involved is that the market doesn't account for the external costs very well. It's the 'dumping pollutants in a river' problem but on a large scale. Privatise the profits, socialise the losses.

    That means that the market is unfairly shifted in favour of just burning more coal/gas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Nope......... sayin so don't make it so.

    Disprove the facts, and then we can talk.

    We have pumped storage here. It works too, but at a low efficiency. And it is used for peaking power, DURING THE DAY.... refilled at night.

    Geothermal of the scale needed to replace fossil fuel would need to be drilled deeper and tap core heat. Iceland? I've been there. Not many people, and hardly any industry by comparison. And they are in a super-duper spot for geothermal. List the states that have that sort of availability....... of enough power to supply the population.... it's a short list, buddy, very short.

    There really is no reliable overnight "no excuses" power other than fossil fuel for the majority of the country. Don't like that? Disprove it with facts.
    Rest is spot on, nuclear replaces this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SomeoneSomewhere View Post
    The reason the government is involved is that the market doesn't account for the external costs very well. It's the 'dumping pollutants in a river' problem but on a large scale. Privatise the profits, socialise the losses.
    .....
    Duke Energy, coal ash pond failure, Dan River, Pat Mccrory governor, former Duke Energy CEO....?

    2014 Dan River coal ash spill - Wikipedia

    Yeah, we're gonna just shit in your drinking water to save money, and then just say 'oops sorry.' And folks wonder why there's a WAR ON COAL.

    You want coal-fired plants? OK, your land is their new ash dump site. Sorry!!!!!


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