Old Wagner Motor - need help
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default Old Wagner Motor - need help

    I posted this in Antique Machinery and was advised to move it here. I have a '60's Delta Jointer that has some issues with the motor. Its a Wagner Electric 1/2 hp type RA, model J-3657. Can't find much on the web on them, what I did find was on the PM forum so here I am.

    I'm running it on 110V, it had a regular plug on it when I got it. When it starts it runs slower than normal for like 5-10 seconds, then kicks up to normal speed for a few minutes, then shuts down. It won’t restart immediately, like it has to cool off? It running through an Allen-Bradly on-off switch. There is no wiring diagram on the motor, but the switch has one.

    I'm not too bad with mechanical stuff but I'm out of my depth here - thanks in advance for any help!

    wagner-motor-plate.jpgwagner-wires.jpgb-switch-diagram.jpgb-switch-wiring.jpg

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    5,602
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    103
    Likes (Received)
    1084

    Default

    Take apart the on-off switch and inspect the points. If one of the two on the outside are burnt up you can substitute the unused one in the center position. That means
    moving the one in the center to an outside position.

    Clean all wire nut connections. Get everything as clean as possible. Then try you motor.

    If you still get a shutdown then your heaters are disconnecting the switch from the motor. That means your motor is drawing an overload of current.
    You might have a faulty start capacitor which can easily be replaced. Your might also have a faulty centrifugal switch inside the motor that can be replaced.

    The above assumes you haver everything wired for low voltage (120vac).
    Is there a box on the motor that has a capacitor in it? What is the value?
    If the centrifugal switch inside the motor is not working you might be able to take apart the motor and inspect it.
    The tag says "Thermal Protection" which is probably a generic tag for their motors. Since that space on the tag is blank you might not have the type of protection.

    If all the above does not solve the issue then your motor has to be checked out or replaced.

  3. Likes hermetic, ClayS liked this post
  4. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Ron,

    Thanks for the suggestions. I don't believe there's a capacitor on the outside, there's no big cylindrical attachment. I'll check the connections and report back.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    5,602
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    103
    Likes (Received)
    1084

    Default

    Show some pictures of the motor and a good picture(s) of the motor wiring box.

    You have to be absolutely sure that the connections for 110vac are correct.
    If this is the first time you have tried your connections then are you sure it is wired for 110vac and not 240vac.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    New Bremen, Ohio
    Posts
    408
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    110
    Likes (Received)
    88

    Default

    There should be a chart inside the starter showing the amp rating for the n16 heaters, they need to be rated for 8 or more amps. The way its wired now its 110v and going to pull at least 8 amps on start up. You could switch it to 220 then start up amps will be closer to 4.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    I re-did the connections at the motor. They were okay but not clean, so I trimmed and stripped everything, put it back together, no change. Didn't take the starter box apart but the contacts look okay to me, pic attached (sorry, tough to photograph). The N16 heaters look to be rated for 2.66 amps (? - see pic) and are definitely warm on shutdown. I can't find a wiring diagram on the motor anywhere. The wiring box is small (see pic) and there is no diagram in there. There appears to have been a decal at the back of the motor and that may have been it, but its long gone. I've searched the web for a wiring diagram but have not found one. Without that, how can I tell if its wired for 110 or 240?

    b-diagram-large.jpgwagner-motor.jpgb-points.jpg

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    5,602
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    103
    Likes (Received)
    1084

    Default

    Got a multi-meter with a clamp-on current probe?

    Since you already have run it at 110vac and there was no smoke, try a short run and look at the current reading.
    You can compare that reading to similar sized motors on the internet.

    From the motor plate it reads as 8amp full load. So the heaters to have such a low rating appears to be wrong.
    Unless somebody did that by design.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    I have a multimeter but not with a clamp-on probe - could I use an alligator clip?

    So if I'm understanding, the motor is drawing 8 amps and the overload heaters trip at 2.66, and both are operating as designed which is why its shutting down. So if I want the motor to keep running I need new heaters rated for 8 x 1.15 = 9.2 amps? Assuming its wired for 110.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    5,602
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    103
    Likes (Received)
    1084

    Default

    Yes to clip.

    The motor will draw up to 8amps at full load. At idle it will be a lot less. You can look that up for a similar size motor.
    Take a average then compare to what you get with the meter. The way you are using the motor will dictate the heater size. I
    don't like those single value heater metal elements. Usually they are used in a housing which has a rotary control that gives
    you a variance of the heater value. I like the kinds of overload controls that have a wider usage range.

    But to get the most out of the motor then I would probably go for 8 amp and be conservative and ignore service factor.
    Last edited by rons; 04-03-2020 at 03:09 AM.

  11. Likes ClayS liked this post
  12. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    New Bremen, Ohio
    Posts
    408
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    110
    Likes (Received)
    88

    Default

    Your motor is wired for 110. You need higher rated heaters, or cheat and jump with a solid wire, it should run but not have overload protection.
    Take the heaters out and make a short jumper out of 12g copper wire just to see if it will run.
    Then get higher rated heaters. I have seen a lot of starters with a jumper wire and no heaters, including a jointer I bought from a school.single-phase-motor.jpg

  13. Likes ClayS liked this post
  14. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    peekskill, NY
    Posts
    25,402
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    5209

    Default

    This may be a repulsion start, induction run motor. There is no capacitor value listed on the nameplate.

    1) remove all power from the system.

    2) see if you can open up one or both end covers.

    3) are there any brushes in there?

  15. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    I'm pretty sure there is no capacitor on it, at least on the outside where I'm used to seeing them.

    After looking up RI motors, mine seems to fit the idea that there's a "start" RPM and then a higher run rpm. I think I can get the back cover off without destroying or losing anything - will try tonight or this weekend.

    If its an RI motor, what then? Do I still need higher value heaters on the switch?

  16. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    I pulled the pulley and removed the crescent shaped plate from the back, can you tell anything from these?

    wagner-2.jpgwagner-3.jpgwagner-4.jpgwagner-6.jpg wagner-5.jpg

  17. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    peekskill, NY
    Posts
    25,402
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    5209

    Default

    "...can you tell anything from these?"

    No capacitors were harmed in the making of this motor. It's repulsion start, induction run.
    The brushes are supposed to lift by a centrigual action typically. The commutator on this
    looks a bit rough.

    You might consider looking to see that a) the brushes are in good conditon, b) the brush lifters are operating,
    c) the commutator is cleaned up a bit.

    D) the motors reverse by moving the brush holder from one position to the other. You might be sure it had
    not shifted to some middle position which would cause difficult starting also.

    Another old RI wagner motor, note the two index marks on the end bell to show
    where the brush holder sits for fwd and rev, also notice that one of the covers is
    designed to flip aside to allow easy access for reversing.






  18. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Alright, so it looks like I'm going in....was hoping to avoid that but what the heck!

    I take it that the brush holder is the thing I'm looking at in my last three photos?

    And then what does this mean for the starter switch - do I still need thermal protection or can I simplify things?

    Thanks!

  19. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    5,602
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    103
    Likes (Received)
    1084

    Default

    Jim nailed that one.

    You ought to clean up the inside. Notice the shiny copper surfaces on Jim's motor.

    You should clean all the contact surfaces and inspect whatever you can by parting the end bells.
    Then run it and measure the current draw.

  20. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Okay - took it apart, cleaned it up, back together, same thing. Its pulling about 7.4 amps when running with no load, so makes sense that its tripping 2.66 amp heaters. I think its set pretty close to its highest speed, if that has anything to do with anything.

    The N29 heaters have a full load rating of 8.03 amps, is that what I need? The N30 is rated at 8.88.

    Poking around I might have found a nice, normal, used, capacitor start replacement for $75......

  21. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    I tried to get a recommendation for the heaters from an online supplier, but they declined – so, this is what I’ve got so far:

    The motor is rated at 8 amps, CF = 1.25. So I’m looking for a shutoff value above 8 x 1.25 = 10 Amps, is that correct?

    The overload heaters include a factor of 1.15 in their ratings – so for example if my 8 amp motor had a CF of 1.15 I would be looking for a heater rated for 8 amps, because the CF for the motor is saying it may pull 8x1.15 amps, and the 8 amp heater really is rated for 8 x 1.15.

    However, since my 8 amp motor has a CF of 1.25 I have to adjust for the difference. My motor max amps will be 8x1.25 = 10. So I’m looking for a heater number that, when multiplied by 1.15 gives me 10 amps. So 10/1.15 = 8.67 amps. Is this correct?

    And if it is, the information inside the switch says than an N28 is rated at 8.57 amps, and an N29 is rated at 9.38. Should I use the closer value or the next higher value?

  22. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    MI USA
    Posts
    957
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    201
    Likes (Received)
    391

    Default AB Heater Element Selection

    Quote Originally Posted by ClayS View Post
    I have a multimeter but not with a clamp-on probe - could I use an alligator clip?

    So if I'm understanding, the motor is drawing 8 amps and the overload heaters trip at 2.66, and both are operating as designed which is why its shutting down. So if I want the motor to keep running I need new heaters rated for 8 x 1.15 = 9.2 amps? Assuming its wired for 110.
    That is incorrect, read the note at the bottom of the heater chart. It says that the full load amps listed in the chart already includes the 15% for the service factor amperage. For 8A you would want, N27 or N28 at the largest. N27 would provide tighter protection.

    For an intermittent load, like a joiner, I would not go oversize. Those N style heaters are a class 30 protection, and have an inherent time delay, much longer than a new class 10 or 20 IEC type overload relay.

    SAF Ω

  23. Likes ClayS liked this post
  24. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    SAF - the service factor om my motor is 1.25 instead of 1.15, does that make any difference?

    Thanks


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •