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phase perfect idle amperage 2KW ???

Stirling

Hot Rolled
Joined
Dec 11, 2013
Location
Alberta canada
hey guys, bought a new amp clamp so I am obviously gonna put it on everything.
put it in the pp-355, 20 hp phase perfect today, about 3 years old, 1000 hours on it and was reading way more amps than I would have thought and would like your input (fluke 325 meter)

with no load connected (wired but machine breaker turned off) the PP was at 8ish amps 240V single phase input steady. the literature of the PP stated approximately 100w idle usage, but my measurements are putting it near 2 KW!!!!
thought that was odd, turned on the machine breaker and powered it up (haas vf2) and very little change in load, oddly I turned on the .75hp main coolant pump and it LOWRED the amperage to the md 7's. Odd right? turned on the TSC (2.5hp) and it went up to the low 8's again. turned both odd, stayed at mid 8's
played with different spindle speeds and you would see the accel spike but it would settle in around the 8-9amp range (no load on spindle)

is this normal? does it need a long time to go into "idle mode" id really like to not waste 2kw just sitting there...

Otherwise I absolutely love it, runs the lathe and mill great (not at same time) the buzzing is annoying tho)
 
Amps is not the same as power. You need to know what the phase angle is in order to calculate power from voltage and current.
 
I don't think you are accurately measuring what you think you are.

To start with for a sanity check, is the PP putting out 2KW of heat? Setting there powered up and without load, if the PP is actually consuming 2KW of power, it should all be going to heat or load work. The 2KW needs to go somewhere if it is actually truly being used.

Does your electric power meter reflect what you are observing with the Amp clamp?

What I think you are seeing is caused by a poor power factor which is not true power consumed. Inverters are notorious for poor power factors at no load.
 
What he said.

A P-P is bouncing around a lot of Copper and Iron in all those fat inductors and big caps. "Bounce" ain't the same as "consume", though.

A "vanilla" watt-hour meter all your very own is about ten bucks to fifty bucks, used or even new. "Real" ones. Like the Powerco use. Not "gadgetry" nor portable test gear. Needs a socket and box, too, though.

You need to "keep it cheaper" on the investment in instruments?

An accurate log of temperature measurements might serve you!
Really. It could.

But it's a PITA.

:D
 
looks like I need to track some more data! ill log standby heat tomorrow

is there any "in line" meters you recommend I could connect to my PP to check/log hours/kw used?
It would be great for trouble shooting and getting a better picture of my manufacturing costs!

Thank you all for the inputs!!
 
Google "power factor".

The current and voltage are not in phase, the difference is phase is the phase angle.
The power factor is cos(phase angle).
Power is voltage x current x cos(phase angle).
If the phase angle between voltage and current is 0 degrees, the cos(0) = 1 and power = voltage x current.
If the phase angle between voltage and current is 90 degrees the cos(90) = 0 and power = 0.
You are somewhere in between.
Unloaded motors have a very low power factor, power factor goes up as a load is applies.
Motors work with magnetic fields, energy is stored in the magnetic field during part of the AC voltage cycle, and returned to the power company in other parts of the AC voltage cycle. You are measuring the back and forth energy flow, power is the energy that flows in but not flow back.
Loads that are intended to produce heat will have a power factor pretty close to 1, like you stove, oven, or water heater.

Don't worry, be happy. What you are seeing is pretty normal

CarlBoyd
 
looks like I need to track some more data! ill log standby heat tomorrow

is there any "in line" meters you recommend I could connect to my PP to check/log hours/kw used?
It would be great for trouble shooting and getting a better picture of my manufacturing costs!

Thank you all for the inputs!!

Welll... you can't really CHANGE much of ANY of it... unless you want to re-engineer half the world?

So yah wanna "keep it cheap"!

Just use the one the powerco already has hanging outside your service entrance. It's what clocks the usage we have to PAY for, so where's the gain with different numbers?

Make your set-up. De-power all the other breakers. Take the reading. Check your watch. Take another to see what you may have missed.

Now you have a "base".

Put the P-P to power. Check the clock . Take another reading. "etc." until you are satisfied you have decent data.

Unlikely the food in your freezer is going to care for any outage under an hour or two? Mine are easily goo for three hours. I don't start the diesel until then. Powerco usually has it back ON right around the 3-hour mark, so why would I?

Now.. if you want to make a hobby of it? Go Ogle for goods. Portable. or "fixed". One could put the whole shop on a sub-meter. Like landlords sometimes do within a block of rental flats. Common powerco style KWH meters are bulky. Also cheap and plentiful. And KNOWN durable! Very!

AND THEN - if you want to mess with hand-helds, instead? Take your shortlist of favourite candidates and go ogle for "problems with.." each player before you buy.

That to weed-out the "commercial puffery", shameless adverhooring, and "favourable review!" shills.... AKA "G-damned liars".

I mean, WTF? Some poor cornfused soul has just bought a "lifetime" roof or just had gender reassignment surgery... and the review says:

"Yes, I'd buy this product AGAIN!"

I did say "liars?"

:D
 
Last edited:
looks like I need to track some more data! ill log standby heat tomorrow

is there any "in line" meters you recommend I could connect to my PP to check/log hours/kw used?
It would be great for trouble shooting and getting a better picture of my manufacturing costs!

Thank you all for the inputs!!

I wouldn't waste my time on it. Unless the PP is generating heat like a space heater in standby, indicating something is wrong in the PP such as a bad IGTB, everything is fine.

Your problem is that you are viewing the reading from your current probe the same as if it were a DC circuit. With AC, you need to know the power factor in order to calculate true power. With AC motors under load and reasonable power factors, your current probe reading multiplied by the voltage will yield an answer approximate to the true power being used. The lower the power factor, the more inaccurate your answer without a proper power factor being included in the calculation.

In your application here, your power factor is terrible at standby and it is very likely that the true power being used by the PP is very close to the rated 100W.

Put your current probe back in the tool box until you understand power factor or are actually needing to troubleshoot something.
 
Lots of people saying the phase angle is off, and that's typically the case, for rotary phase converters. Rectified and switch mode loads such as a phase perfect, SMPS, VFD, etc have what is called a distortion power factor. Basically, it can draw power in huge surges at the tip of the waveform, and very little at the rest of the waveform. This spikeyness both increases RMS amperage, and messes with cheap current probes that expect a 60hz sine wave.

Good quality meters exists that can measure this reliably. But unless you know the distortion power factor, the phase angle won't tell you squat unless it has great filtering.

The distortion involved varies heavily by the design of the input stage, but it's certainly not as simple of a fix as adding capacitors or inductors as passive power factor correction is.

I expect, especially at no load, that you are seeing very near full load amps of the PP being drawn, but only for a very short duration of the cycle.
 
There is another issue.

All of the newer PP units that I know of, including the PT355 have a power factor correcting input circuit. So NONE of the things anyone is discussing should be happening, if that is the model.

However, the input current is listed as 98A for 55A output. That is reflective of the power drawn to supply 55A on 3 phases, almost exactly 1.73 x the input current, as one would expect for the high efficiency.

A quick look through the manual did not indicate an idling current draw, but there are input filter capacitors, 4x 40 uF in the PT 355. Those will draw some "leading" current, which would explain some of the effects noted.

https://www.phasetechnologies.com/downloads/Phase Perfect PT Manual V2.0.pdf
 
There is another issue.

All of the newer PP units that I know of, including the PT355 have a power factor correcting input circuit. So NONE of the things anyone is discussing should be happening, if that is the model.

However, the input current is listed as 98A for 55A output. That is reflective of the power drawn to supply 55A on 3 phases, almost exactly 1.73 x the input current, as one would expect for the high efficiency.

A quick look through the manual did not indicate an idling current draw, but there are input filter capacitors, 4x 40 uF in the PT 355. Those will draw some "leading" current, which would explain some of the effects noted.

https://www.phasetechnologies.com/downloads/Phase Perfect PT Manual V2.0.pdf

unit is a PH355D from phase perfect

I will check for excess heat, likely I have no issue, I appreciate all of the time you have all taken and information though!!
it pays better to make chips than investigate nothing I suppose!

The reason it would be nice to have a separate power meter would be to break out the power used in the shop from the house.
I run full time out of a residential home. It would be good for the accountant year end and my own costing knowledge to break out the machines and compressors usage. haha. One machine and the compressor tap out the full house if I run hard!
 
unit is a PH355D from phase perfect

I will check for excess heat, likely I have no issue, I appreciate all of the time you have all taken and information though!!
Not entirely idle interest. Many of us own Phase-Perfects ourselves, have "some" vested interest in advance warning if mischief actually IS afoot!

The reason it would be nice to have a separate power meter would be to break out the power used in the shop from the house.
I run full time out of a residential home. It would be good for the accountant year end and my own costing knowledge to break out the machines and compressors usage. haha. One machine and the compressor tap out the full house if I run hard!

Straight-up simplicity then, is to go and eyeball the meter your Powerco is using.

Then buy the exact same one and have it installed (indoors!) in the sole and only feed to the shop.

Whether you note the day they report for reading their one and read the shop one, same day, or just read on your accounting period boundaries and use the rates off the powerco bill, readings based on the same goods reduce possible questions at audit-time.

Not that there should be a huge diff. They can be, and ARE "calibrated".

Even so.... an acquaintance, Seniour Exec at a Powerco who had "come up though the ranks", holes and poles as well as Collitch, and "knew his s**t", once idly mentioned that the meters (of that era), ran backwards if installed upside-down.

Wuddn' yah know it, one of those present went away and made a regular practice of it!

Damned fool would run his meter upside down one week of each month, then upright it the other three. Net effect was to cut his power bill in half.

Well... that's theft, dammit! Not a way to impress the rest of us paying our full bill, either!

And Powerco's ain't SO STOOPID as to not notice the DRAMATIC pattern change off the usage history! So started making the odd visit and finding they had a seal to replace, one go after another!

The idjut came close to being nailed red-handed, and finally got the message he was flirting with jail time and gave it up!

Those of us who knew him surely didn't think much of him though!

:(
 
There is another issue.

All of the newer PP units that I know of, including the PT355 have a power factor correcting input circuit. So NONE of the things anyone is discussing should be happening, if that is the model.

However, the input current is listed as 98A for 55A output. That is reflective of the power drawn to supply 55A on 3 phases, almost exactly 1.73 x the input current, as one would expect for the high efficiency.

A quick look through the manual did not indicate an idling current draw, but there are input filter capacitors, 4x 40 uF in the PT 355. Those will draw some "leading" current, which would explain some of the effects noted.

https://www.phasetechnologies.com/downloads/Phase Perfect PT Manual V2.0.pdf

Active PFC can be a butt itself though. It's intended for loaded operation and may do little to nothing at idle power.
 
Active PFC can be a butt itself though. It's intended for loaded operation and may do little to nothing at idle power.


Not in my experience designing units with active PFC. The harmonics were low from idle through max power. They need to be if the unit is to meet various requirements, and the units in question did, although they were of "only" about 3 HP output.

IF the unit has no need to meet any requirements, i.e. not sold outside the US, then of course the sky is the limit. My understanding is that Phase Perfect did not even fully meet FCC requirements until recently.

I did not find any info on a "PH355D"
 
the phase perfect patents clearly show a boost power factor converter front end which should be good for on the order of 97 to 99% power factor and will thus draw 1.73* the 3 phase output in amps.

that's the easy part.

OP shows 8 or 9 amps of line input.

such "noise" is entirely consistent with about 100 uf of capacitance across the line.

which we know the PP already has. it has two banks of caps from input to output. they stress them a bit too much which is why they need replacing, but that's a matter of opinion.

anyhow, put 2 x 200uF line to generated phase and it adds up to 100 uf line to line and that's mostly what op reads on his current meter
 
which we know the PP already has. it has two banks of caps from input to output. they stress them a bit too much which is why they need replacing, but that's a matter of opinion.
"Off topic" sorta-maybe, but..

I doubt I'm the ONLY one to SHARE that "opinion".... AKA 'cold, hard FACT?'.

:)

I'm of a mind to "outboard" physically larger MIL-SPEC uber-uber long-life caps to a supplemental cabinet.

Age 76 arredy, one set should carry me to end of MY days. Sure as dammit I'll otherwise FORGET to replace the over-stressed OEM's at 3-year intervals!

Appreciate any thoughts on what caps the rest of you lot might select if you were to do that?

TIA

Bill
 
Explanation by Phase Perfect below :) pretty neat and gives expected measures amp draws and explains why they will appear high but are not! thank you all for your input on this topic and have a great day :)

Capacitive Current and Standby Loss for the Phase Perfect®
240V Digital Phase Converter
Introduction
The Phase Perfect utilizes filter capacitors to reduce electronic switching noise that is created by the
active switching technology employed in its architecture. These filter capacitors cause the system to
circulate reactive power. The purpose of this white paper is to explain what capacitive current or
power is, how it affects stand-by losses, and why measured stand-by current does not equate to
consumed power and is not billed for by the utility.
Capacitive Power Fundamentals
Our Phase Perfect systems utilize LC filtering (inductors and capacitors) to reduce noise from the
switching technology. Capacitors and inductors do not dissipate or consume power. Capacitors
store energy in the form of electrical charge, and inductors store energy in the form of a magnetic
field. These components both have a net effect of zero, as they alternate between supplying and
consuming energy.
In an AC circuit, capacitors and inductors continually charge and discharge at even rates. This means
that the average power through these components is 0. Half of the period of the power waveform is
spent absorbing power, and the other half of the period is spent supplying power. Averaging these
two parts together yields no net power loss because the charging and discharging curves are
symmetrical.
Example
Below is an example of how AC power functions in a simple circuit with a reactive load. This circuit,
illustrated in Figure 1, is composed of a resistor representing line resistance (10 ohms is a very small
resistance) and a capacitor.
Figure 1. Simple RC Circuit
Design
Assume this circuit is supplied with a 240V 60Hz source. Figure 2 below shows one complete cycle
of the voltage and current waveforms through the capacitor, as measured by probes “V” and “I” in
Figure 1 above. Note that the current waveform has been scaled up to match the range of the
Published: May 18, 2018
Phase Technologies, LLC
231 East Main Street North
Rapid City, SD 57701
605-343-7934 - Main
866-290-7934 – Toll Free
605-343-7943 - Fax
P a g e | 3
voltage curve. Using a large capacitance value like 2.65F gives a very clean current waveform to
compare to the voltage.
Figure 2. Voltage and Current Waveforms through the Capacitor
Figure 3 illustrates the instantaneous power through this simple circuit as measured at “V1” in Figure
1. The instantaneous power is the product of the current at voltage at any point in time. The cyclical
nature of this waveform oscillates between power consumption and power supply as previously
discussed.
Figure 3. Instantaneous Power in the Simple RC Circuit
The formula for average power in an ideal AC system is:
P = Vm · Im · cos(θ)
where m = magnitude
P = power
V= voltage
I = current
θ = phase angle (between voltage and current curves)
In this example circuit, there is always a phase angle of 90° because a purely reactive load (a load
composed entirely of capacitors and/or inductors) causes a phase shift of 90°. If θ is always 90°, then
cos(θ) will always be 0. Regardless of the voltage or current, the average power of an AC circuit in
-400
0
400
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
Time (ms)
I
-40
0
40
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
Time (ms)
Power
Consumption
V
Power
Consumption
Power
Supply
Power
Supply
Published: May 18, 2018
Phase Technologies, LLC
231 East Main Street North
Rapid City, SD 57701
605-343-7934 - Main
866-290-7934 – Toll Free
605-343-7943 - Fax
P a g e | 4
this configuration will always be 0W. However, as Figure 3 illustrates, even though the average
power is 0, the instantaneous power does vary.
Phase Perfect Stand-By Power
The Phase Perfect systems are much more complex than the simple RC circuit explored up to this
point. However, the same general concepts do apply. Due to the LC filtering in the Phase Perfect
systems, the filter capacitors are alternately charging and discharging.
Table 1 calculates the expected currents when measuring a system in stand-by. The formula for
calculating the current in a Phase Perfect system in stand-by is:
I = 2π · V · f · C
where f = frequency
C = capacitance
Table 1 calculates this expected circulating current in stand-by mode for the various Phase Perfect
models. These currents are not consumed, but reflected back to the source.
Table 1. Expected Circulating Current in Phase Perfect Systems
Model PT330 PT355 PT380 PT3110 PT3160
Capacitance [C] (μF) 40 80 60 160 240
Voltage [V] (V) 240 240 240 240 240
Frequency [f] (Hz) 60 60 60 60 60
Current (A) 3.62 7.24 10.85 14.48 21.71
Unlike the ideal circuit explored in the example, the Phase Perfect has losses, which means that the
system is not 100% efficient. The system is consuming a nominal amount of energy, even in standby
mode.
Utility meters only measure power consumed (i.e. currents that are greater than 0). In a Phase
Perfect system, the utility meter will not register the circulating current (which averages to no net
power consumption). The utility is measuring an average of the current flowing to the capacitors and
being reflected back to the source. For a PT330 system, the current measured at the PT330 is
approximately 4.06A in stand-by mode. Per Table 1, the circulating current is approximately 3.62A.
Approximately 0.44A (the net difference) is consumed by the Phase Perfect. Thus, the stand-by
power consumption for a Phase Perfect system is:
P = V · (Iconverter – Ireflected)
where V = utility voltage
Iconverter = current measured at the Phase Perfect system
Ireflected = circulating current reflected back to the source
For the PT330 system, the stand-by power consumption is:
P = 240V · (4.06A – 3.62A) = 105.6W
Published: May 18, 2018
Phase Technologies, LLC
231 East Main Street North
Rapid City, SD 57701
605-343-7934 - Main
866-290-7934 – Toll Free
605-343-7943 - Fax
P a g e | 5
SUMMARY
Filter capacitors in Phase Perfect systems alternate between charging and discharging, creating a
reactive load which consumes no power. The actual peak currents that may be measured at the
source to a Phase Perfect unit will be much higher than what is actually being consumed. The actual
power consumption is the difference between this current and the current that is reflected back to the
source due to circulation.
Utility meters only measure current consumption, NOT circulation. Thus, though the amount of
current passing through the Phase Perfect system may be significant, the utilities are only charging
for the net power consumed, NOT the reactive current.
About Phase Technologies
Founded in 1999, Phase Technologies developed Phase Perfect® digital phase converters, the first
major advance of phase conversion technology in decades. Recognized as the world’s leading
manufacturer of phase converter technologies, the company expanded its product offerings to include
variable frequency drives (VFD’s).
Specializing in VFD with Active Front End technology, Phase Technologies produces the only low
harmonic, fully regenerative, phase-converting VFD that complies with IEEE 519, the international
standard for allowable harmonic levels on utility mains. The company has an extensive product lineup
of low harmonic, fully regenerative drives in both three-phase and phase-converting models.
Phase Technologies relies on a team of in-house power electronics and mechanical design engineers
to develop innovative products, encompassing all aspects of hardware and firmware design. All
products are manufactured at our facilities in the USA under exacting quality standards. In-house
processes include printed circuit board population and custom magnetics fabrication.
The company operates a certified UL 508A panel shop to integrate our drives into rugged outdoor
panels with custom options for applications including irrigation, oil and gas production and general
industrial control.
Integrity and honesty are the cornerstones of customer interaction at Phase Technologies.
Knowledgeable sales experts are available to help customers select the right product to fit their
needs, and we partner with the best distributors and dealers to make our products available with rapid
delivery times and local service. Experts in our customer service department are standing by to
answer technical questions and provide the support to keep your application up and running.
 
Well I am just happy I got to learn new things!
Again , Thank you all!

Sounds like lots of electrical brains in this section of the forum, wanna take a crack at forum diagnosing my vector drive? haha!
it only works when its 35 deg C or warmer, or else it flags a short circuit.... Oh the struggle of not knowing boards, and meters!
 
Well I am just happy I got to learn new things!
Again , Thank you all!

Sounds like lots of electrical brains in this section of the forum, wanna take a crack at forum diagnosing my vector drive? haha!
it only works when its 35 deg C or warmer, or else it flags a short circuit.... Oh the struggle of not knowing boards, and meters!


Most likely there is a cracked solder joint, or potentially, a similar defect inside an IC, in a circuit related to the current limit detector.

"Opens" when cold are a classic problem. I've always kept a can of "freeze mist" around for diagnosing just that sort of thing. Get the long thin "snout" on the nozzle, and try to drip the liquid on individual parts, until one makes it crap out.

That is generally the bad one, although once in a while a consumer-temp range part will not work at the freeze mist temperature. You have to be aware of that possibility, and not assume you have the right part. Usually a temperature related defect is like a switch, and exceeding a temp limit first degrades performance.
 
Well I am just happy I got to learn new things!
Again , Thank you all!

Sounds like lots of electrical brains in this section of the forum, wanna take a crack at forum diagnosing my vector drive? haha!
it only works when its 35 deg C or warmer, or else it flags a short circuit.... Oh the struggle of not knowing boards, and meters!

You need 35 CEE to make it work ... and you are in Alberta, BC of a December?

The chilling spray JST mentioned (or an artist's brush to dab-on Isopropanol), is half the fault-isolation toolset.

A liberated lady-hair dryer or a shrink-tubing heat-gun with a tube (insulated!) to focus warm, not blistering, air on suspect components is the other half.

Besides cracked traces, failed plated-through holes, "cold" solder joints on (usually multi-layer..) Printed Circuit Boards, resistors, capacitors, and lumped inductors - either at their leads or in their internals - can develop intermittent failure modes.
 








 
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