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Phase Perfect output waveform?

Aaron B

Aluminum
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Location
Northern Ohio
I've been reading up on RPCs and solid state phase conversion, a subject which isn't exactly clear. So my question is as follows, has anyone looked at the output waveform from a Phase Perfect with an oscilloscope? If so, how 'clean' is it?

Thanks,
Aaron
 
Are you using it to power a radio receiver, or a transmitter?

Unless you're concerned about powering a CNC machine that's overly sensitive to RF hash, or you're rag-chewing on 75m AM while turning threads, ANY converter's output will be of basically zero impact...
 
Are you using it to power a radio receiver, or a transmitter?

Unless you're concerned about powering a CNC machine that's overly sensitive to RF hash, or you're rag-chewing on 75m AM while turning threads, ANY converter's output will be of basically zero impact...

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that there were special motors designed to accommodate the added heating from the high frequency components and for the shorter insulation life because of the heating.

Tom
 
the company literature says 3.4% thd... and that's about what you can expect from the grid.

POWER QUALITY
Phase Perfect produces true sinusoidal 3-phase output voltages balanced to within 1% under all load conditions. Because the output voltage is a sine wave with very low harmonic distortion, all types of 3-phase equipment can be safely powered. Input current is true sinusoidal, near unity (.99) power factor and is very low in total harmonic distortion (THD).
 
I'm confused about the "INPUT CURRENT" being true sinusoidal and very low THD, why should one care about the input?

Or are they talking of the "all types of 3-phase equipment" that can be safely powered?
 

Bill, i respect your opinion but, you are out in the weeds as my boss likes to say. There are no fast rising transients, voltage or current.
imagine in which the work you put forth into tracking a "a moving target." is conserved, and there is no effort into calculating that motion ahead of time.. infact you have a 60hz machine tuned rightly to track the grid, which deviating only a fraction, is able to keep ahead of the machine you are powering.. given that the information you need to provide 3 phase is derivable from single phase, it is of no concern; and you have infinite energy storage.---simply the machine shuts off before anything exceeds 1kw per hp.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that there were special motors designed to accommodate the added heating from the high frequency components and for the shorter insulation life because of the heating.Tom

Hi Tom!

There are motors that are DESIGNATED to be avertised to accomodate high-frequency input and transients. As far as design, there's only some things they CAN change... but the biggest difference from what I see, is the amount of focus on insulation quality.

See, the motor is naturally an AC electric device... you have a pair of coils which alternate between attraction and repulsion. Even a DC motor has alternation. That being the case, there's high inductance... and therefore, some frequency at which the coils simply cannot respond above. Likewise, the core of an inductor (if it has one) contributes to the inductance, hence, further limits the frequency roll-off point. Transformers are the same way... you can't put 1.3Mhz into a 60hz coil and expect it to come out the other end... it won't make it.

What DOES happen, is that whatever you drive IN, that cannot come out, is either reflected, or dissipated as heat.

Now, consider the motor to be a 60hz inductor. If you're slamming 20kw of 400hz into a 60hz inductor for one hour, and only 10kw is coming out, you'll have 34121 BTU of waste heat to warm your shop. That'd be nice today, but call me back in July and I'll have less delicate words...

In reality, you'll have melted motor insulation before you ever get to that level of inefficiency, but also, there aren't many situations where you'd slam 400hz into a 60hz inductor. Highest I run my machines... lessee... the radial drill has an ordinary 1800rpm C-face motor, and I run it to around 215hz. I don't get a whole lotta torque with it whirling away in the realm of 6500rpm, but usually that only occurs when I'm drilling small-diameter/low torque holes, so it doesn't matter. The real result, is that there's not much energy going in, not much load, not much waste heat, hence not much heating in the motor. I HAVE removed the motor's shaft-mounted fan, and replaced it with a constant-speed 'muffin' type fan, but not because the motor gets any warmer at any speed... it's because when that things gettin' it on at 6k, the shaft-mount fan may-as-well be an air-raid siren... the neighborhood heads for the storm shelter. I like music in my shop... that means not having to live in earplugs.

The manufacturer's first and foremost concern, is that the windings don't fail. There's two aspects of this... first being, do they get hot enough for the insulation to break down. Second, is that when you apply current to a wire, it generates a field. When the field builds, anything that attracts or repels that field, will want to MOVE THE WIRE. That means the wire could vibrate itself to death... or it's insulation could fail. This isn't a phenomenon limited to motors on VFDs... it happens with ALL motors, so manufacturers wrap the coils in cloth tape, or pot them in epoxy or goo, whatever they could, to keep the windings from vibrating.

Modern motors, they use vacuum and pressure, heat-curing epoxies, and all sorts of dandy stuff to make them stay down tight. Old motors were made using the technology THEY had on hand... and they built them as tough as they could, and frequently did very well, judging by how many are still in service.

If you run a VFD, or any other solid-state drive concept into a motor at 60 hz, you'll likely find that even with a substantial amount of harmonic distortion and RF hash, that ANY good industrial motor simply won't care... that any noise emitted, will be reflected back out of the motor with very little heating... and as I noted (and others agreed), that if you're listening to an AM Oldies channel, Buddy Holly will sound like Jimi Hendrix...
 
Simplicity DC Drive?

You want 'ugly' take a look at what a direct-off-the-line DC SCR drive manufactures in the way of rude influences. BOTH sides of itself, load as well as line. Mine for the 10EE sits 'tother side of 90+ lbs avoir worth of 5KW full-isolation transformer and even that downstream of a Corcom-style higher-freq EMI/RFI filter. That combo takes care of need for a 'line reactor'.

The 'load reactor', motor-side of the DC drive, is also a Very Good Idea when the motor is 72+ years young, never HEARD of an 'SCR', and came from an era when 'fast rise' had to do with pinup gals. Bill


Bill
I've read hear often, of your mention of the quantity and simplicity of DC drives in your arsenal. Is this typical of a DC unit install? LINE → Hi-freq EMI/RFI → Full Isolation Xform →SCR →Load Reactor → 72 Year Old. To keep your scope and wireless functioning without a hiccup? I'll leave the questions about the "fast Rise times" to another thread...

SAF Ω
 
I'm confused about the "INPUT CURRENT" being true sinusoidal and very low THD, why should one care about the input?

Or are they talking of the "all types of 3-phase equipment" that can be safely powered?

The Phase perfect is very similar to a "system drive" VFD.... There are two parts to it.

One is the mains interface, which converts AC to DC, AND DC to AC to put out on the mains.... The other part of it is the part that acts like a VFD that doesn't have the "V" part (variable frequency) activated. The second part drives your motors etc at 60 Hz.

The input part DRAWS CURRENT in a sinusoidal fashion, it acts as a "PFC" (Power Factor Corrector) with regard to the incoming power. Forget all the business about transients etc. The real deal here is that by drawing sinusoidal current, it "looks like a resistor", with a power factor of just about 1.0, and can give the MOST output for the given input circuit capability.

The otehr thing the input does is to dump excess power back to the line, in case of heavy braking, etc. It will not over-voltage, it just dumps back onto the line any excess, in a clean and low EMI fashion.

As for the output, I understand that older ones are not as clean, but newer ones will have some reasonably effective sine filter which keeps the noise down and minimizes THD. The THD spec is comparable to the power company, but may not have the same harmonic structure as the power line might.

It will be sinusoidal enough to not cause any motor an issue, however. IT IS NOT A VFD.... it will not subject things to heavy harmonic content, or cause overheating, breakdown, etc.

A VFD is hooked direct, minimal filter, and puts square waves on the motor. The Phase Perfect will not....
 
I think the original poster's question was: sine wave, or pulse width modulation?

The answer, it seems, is sine wave. And a tolerably good one at that.
 
I think the original poster's question was: sine wave, or pulse width modulation?

The answer, it seems, is sine wave. And a tolerably good one at that.

Actually, it's BOTH....

Yes it uses PWM to make the sine wave.

No you don't need to worry about it since it gets filtered to a good sine at low THD.
 
"Yes it uses PWM to make the sine wave."

Not analog?

They must go to some pretty good lengths to get specs that good
by assembling the waveform from scratch...
 
"Yes it uses PWM to make the sine wave."

Not analog?

They must go to some pretty good lengths to get specs that good
by assembling the waveform from scratch...

Not really.

A sine filter is reasonably simple, usually two inductors and a capacitor. 3 phase, of course. Somewhat more fancy setup is required to "terminate" the filter when there is an unknown load on the output, so probably a few more parts to assure a load at the high frequency end and make the filter work right. This isn't your daddy's six step inverter....

Analog would suck up a lot of power. At that sort of power level, the analog solution would waste kilowatts, and be significantly more expensive.
 
I'm wondering if anyone owning a Phase Perfect and an oscilloscope would take a trace and post it. I would have thought the vendor would be all over this if the output were as pure and perfectly spaced as they claim. I'm not saying they are wrong but it would be nice to see it.
 
I wondered about this last year. Before moving the shop I bought a phase rotation tester hoping it would be a good tool for when I reconnect in the new shop. Turns out it did not work with the output power form the PP. So I got to wondering why. I assumed it had to do with leg 1 and 2 being apparently the same as L1 L2 from the 1ph side, and only the 3rd is truly generated?
Though when you switch 2 wires it obviously changes motor direction so there's gotta be 3 waves I guess? so then I thought well who cares at this point just wire the damn thing and get back to work and throw the phase rotation tester in the box with all the other toys I bought that were no use.
 
Yes, they use the input wires passed through, just as an RPC does. The input wires are single phase by themselves, but are two wires of a three phase system when the third wire is added.

That's why a motor is said to be "single phased" when one phase drops out. They do not call it "two-phased" when that happens, even though there are two wires left.

I am not sure why your phase rotation meter did not work right, but I assume it was confused by the relatively small "switching transients" that were left. The output might also not be as sinusoidal when there is no load, if you checked before hooking any load up, as might be normal when checking power company 3 phase..
 
I am not sure why your phase rotation meter did not work right, but I assume it was confused by the relatively small "switching transients" that were left. The output might also not be as sinusoidal when there is no load, if you checked before hooking any load up, as might be normal when checking power company 3 phase..

its an LC filter after a half bridge. the ripple is the same at no load as it is under load neglecting partial or full saturation of the inductor at full load. under 7 times full load current i suspect the inductor is effectively an air core so the ripple voltage might be 10+X normal conditions.

given SND's problems of his PP "talking" to the microwave and his neighbor down the road, i'm not surprised the rotation meter didn't work.

anyhow a rotation meter can be configured from two neon lightbulbs, resistors and capacitor and is probably immune to the ripple voltage from a PP. i would not expect one of them to work from a VFD though given the sharp rising edges from the 340vdc pwm and no filter at all, so if such a meter doesn't work on his PP then i'd say the flter caps aren't present, defective, or connected wrong or something..
 
I'm wondering if anyone owning a Phase Perfect and an oscilloscope would take a trace and post it. I would have thought the vendor would be all over this if the output were as pure and perfectly spaced as they claim. I'm not saying they are wrong but it would be nice to see it.

Phase Technologies - of all people! - have those.

Specs have it 1% or less off "perfect", so I'm not sure what one would expect to see?

There are some traces in published white papers, but "who knows" if those are off the 'scope or publishing software?

Telling, of course, the mass of the several filter inductors - VFD do not own any such thing. See also the rather high value filter capacitors, output side, also not present in VFD.

Separate threads have been tracking surviving NOISE off the switching process that is not meant to be there - seems to be the result of a malfunction or components aged out of spec.

I do note that the current "white case" model calls for capacitor replacement at three year intervals. Those are worked harder than the incoming ones in a VFD, so no surprise that have but a third to half the forecast trouble-free life.
 
Obviously I assume PP has one but I don't expect them to post the results. I'm just seeing if anyone out there has a trace to post. Simple as that. I personally won't spend thousands on an unknown and trust in the vendor isn't enough for me because there is a post on youtube with a meter that probably isn't all that accurate that shows more like 3% at least voltage change with small amp changes.
 
Well, its fairly simple. If you can get 3PH from the pole, that's your best bet, but if you can't then PP is your 2nd best option, and last resort, rotary, or maybe 3phase generator, which I haven't ruled out yet either for a couple other reasons/future plans, but that would be quite a bit more pricey to run.
 








 
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