Phase Perfect shop install setup

I’m putting together a small home shop in my detached garage. It has a 100a 220v panel running off the 200a house panel. I already have a 5hp single stage compressor.

My plan is for the 10hp phase perfect pt-330d. I will use a 60a breaker but will run 4awg in pvc conduit surface mount. Where I want the machines is of course in the opposite corner of the panel box. About 50 feet. The 4 awg is in case I ever need to switch to a 70a breaker.

I will be running a Hurco KMB1 5 spindle hp, a bandsaw and a timesaver.

I’m thinking a big knife disconnect switch on the input side of the PP. Then on the output side do I need a 3 phase panel with breakers for all 3 machines? I’ve read on here that many wire direct? Or I could put in twist lock plugs under 50a.

Opinions and why. Thanks and I will have an electrical inspection either way just budgeting right now.

Hello, you could wire the Phase Perfect into a three phase panel and wire to each machine.I found a used one with breakers.

I have my PT330 hooked to a 50A breaker on the input with no other disconnect in between. I use the breaker to turn it on and off. I have fused knife switches on the output, one for each of two machines. I'm not sure it's the greatest idea to use the breaker as the on-off, but it only gets switched while unloaded.

Which brings up a story. When I worked in an early 60s office building at a research facility, for some reason there were no light switches in the offices. Every morning, you had to stop in the hallway, open the breaker panel, and flip the breaker for your office to turn on the lights and outlets. Of course, the breakers were not well labeled and it was dark just when you needed it to be light, so all sorts of havoc happened with people flipping random breakers and computers going down at inopportune moments. The breakers seemed to have survived light switch service for decades.

Old26 said:

I’m putting together a small home shop in my detached garage. It has a 100a 220v panel running off the 200a house panel. I already have a 5hp single stage compressor.

My plan is for the 10hp phase perfect pt-330d. I will use a 60a breaker but will run 4awg in pvc conduit surface mount. Where I want the machines is of course in the opposite corner of the panel box. About 50 feet. The 4 awg is in case I ever need to switch to a 70a breaker.

I will be running a Hurco KMB1 5 spindle hp, a bandsaw and a timesaver.

I’m thinking a big knife disconnect switch on the input side of the PP. Then on the output side do I need a 3 phase panel with breakers for all 3 machines? I’ve read on here that many wire direct? Or I could put in twist lock plugs under 50a.

Opinions and why. Thanks and I will have an electrical inspection either way just budgeting right now.

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"Direct" wiring of a P-P is generally when used for but the one load - see their manual.

A modest 3-P loadcenter with internal, not tie-bar, "common-trip" breakers can be safer as well as more flexible than individually fused disconnects. I like Square-D "QO".

You'll be well-served with Hubbell twist-lock outlets, either way.

I have chosen to go the extra mile and run the P-P Delta output into a GS/EGS Hevi-Duty Delta-Wye "drive isolation" transformer to re-derive a Neutral, and "five wire" outlets, whether - all or even ANY - of my loads need it or not.

It is expected to attenuate any surviving switching artifacts that might affect rather elderly motors and also reduce all legs to the same and identical, "somewhat less lethal" potential above Protective Earth.

Line-to-line remains as lethal as ever, of course. One JFDWT.

YMMV

rklopp said:

The breakers seemed to have survived light switch service for decades.

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That was once common, but the breakers were SUPPOSED TO BE ones rated for frequent use AS "switches" as well as breakers.

Not all were. Not all lasted for "decades".

I've had a few different set ups with my 2 phase perfects. From hooking 2 machines into each units, which was fine but the terminals aren't all that big.
My current set up is better, all run in EMT. I have a main line fed from the 10hp unit that goes to a splitter through with 3 manual machines hooked to that, each with their own disconnects(which stay on anyway but it looks pretty...)
My 20hp PP feeds a delta/wye transformer (I needed to lower the voltage) that feeds a 3PH panel, that one has 2 cnc's and a 3ph compressor into it.
Doing it again though I wouldn't bother with the delta/wye transformer, that was a lot of $, and instead put a line reactor ahead of the PP, it would knock close to the voltage I needed off, and add some filtering. Which may still happen...

I just use the main panel breaker to turn on/off each PP unit.

SND said:

Doing it again though I wouldn't bother with the delta/wye transformer, that was a lot of $, and instead put a line reactor ahead of the PP, it would knock close to the voltage I needed off, and add some filtering. Which may still happen...

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I expect to still apply line-side conditioning as well. Just haven't picked which type yet.

Cost for the Wye service? Yah. About $600 - $800 per-each of 2 X 10 HP P-P and one 10/15 HP RPC, all off the back of used transformers and reasonably cheap freight.

But I gang too soon elt und too late schmart, so eventually that may mean less careful and ~ 130 VAC off Neutral vs ~ 245 VAC above ground still has merit.

Even so, it's actually the HV "stick and fry" Dee Cee Silicon-C**t-Rolled Rectum-fryers I am seriously anal about "containing".

Oy! That schmarts!

Thanks all.

A breaker as a switch is technically illegal. So I’ll keep the knife disconnect right before the PC.

I like QO as well. That’s what all of my building and home have. But pursuing their 3 phase panel offerings for the output side, they go from a 3 position to like a 12. 3 will do it but I’d rather buy a 6. Know of other brands that may offer something mid range?

Old26 said:

Thanks all.

A breaker as a switch is technically illegal.

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It CAN be legal. See "SWD" and "HID" ratings. It may not be practical, no. "HID" rated are not meant to be over 50A, and a 10 HP P-P wants 55 nominal, 70 maximum.

So I’ll keep the knife disconnect right before the PC.

I like QO as well. That’s what all of my building and home have. But pursuing their 3 phase panel offerings for the output side, they go from a 3 position to like a 12. 3 will do it but I’d rather buy a 6. Know of other brands that may offer something mid range?

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Those are "maximum number of SINGLE pole breakers".

A 3-P panel can have a mix of 3-pole, 2-pole, and 1-pole.

Wouldn’t a multi pole breaker take up more room than a single? I’ve never looked In a 3 phase panel? So for a typical 3 phase device, red, yellow, white, green wires 230v how many pole breaker does that require?

Old26 said:

Wouldn’t a multi pole breaker take up more room than a single? I’ve never looked In a 3 phase panel? So for a typical 3 phase device, red, yellow, white, green wires 230v how many pole breaker does that require?

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Yes:



Regards.

Mike

Ok so I will need 3 breakers minimum wired that way. So what panel should I choose? QO line jumps from 3 position to 18 actually not 12. So that would give me 3 three pole plus ground and three extra 3 pole. Also main breaker over main lug I think. A panel that size will be rated like 125a but I could put a smaller main in it to protect the Phase Perfect. But PT-330 is rated at 36a output and can output up to 150a for 4 seconds which would trip even a 125a main. Not that I ever intend to draw this but is a main lug panel better in this case to fully utilize the PC?

Old26 said:

Ok so I will need 3 breakers minimum wired that way. So what panel should I choose? QO line jumps from 3 position to 18 actually not 12. So that would give me 3 three pole plus ground and three extra 3 pole. Also main breaker over main lug I think. A panel that size will be rated like 125a but I could put a smaller main in it to protect the Phase Perfect. But PT-330 is rated at 36a output and can output up to 150a for 4 seconds which would trip even a 125a main. Not that I ever intend to draw this but is a main lug panel better in this case to fully utilize the PC?

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I read literally nothing of this thread except for what you just said about the 125A breaker. Breakers aren't quite that simple. The trip curve for a 125 amp QO breaker is on page 28 of this PDF: http://download.schneider-electric....File_Name=0730CT9801.pdf&p_Doc_Ref=0730CT9801

150 amps would take roughly 3 minutes minimum to trip a 125A breaker. This is also at 104 degrees F ambient temperature, so it could be even longer if it is cooler than that (or shorter if hotter).

A 50 amp QO breaker would take almost exactly 4 seconds to trip at 150 amps current draw.

Strostkovy said:

I read literally nothing of this thread except for what you just said about the 125A breaker. Breakers aren't quite that simple. The trip curve for a 125 amp QO breaker is on page 28 of this PDF: http://download.schneider-electric....File_Name=0730CT9801.pdf&p_Doc_Ref=0730CT9801

150 amps would take roughly 3 minutes minimum to trip a 125A breaker. This is also at 104 degrees F ambient temperature, so it could be even longer if it is cooler than that (or shorter if hotter).

A 50 amp QO breaker would take almost exactly 4 seconds to trip at 150 amps current draw.

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Good points, though QO can be "funny" and trip in a New York Minute - as they were meant to do - off the back of the nature of the causative event.

FWIW-not-much? "Fuses" need looked-up as to their many and varied specifics as well. Loads under 135% of nominal rating may not activate some of them at all.

I'm OK with wire for max, but breaker for LESS.

40A on the input unless and UNTIL a 50 A or even 60 A is proven to be needed.

10, 15, 20, 30 A on the output.. unless and UNTIL ... etc.

One dasn't want chronic "nuisance" trips, but if a fuse or breaker does not EVER trip?

It is probably oversized for its mission, and not much protection against anything but a dead-short. If even.

Last 2 posts are interesting but I’m still not sure what size main to use on the pc output 3 phase panel. I’ll never run 3 machines at once but I can easily see running any two. Beyond start up that shouldn’t be a problem. I don’t want to start up the bandsaw while the mill is running, trip the main, and loose my program in the mill. I could rewire the Monitor Unit to be powered from the single phase so that I can leave it on during programming or the night before, etc.

My 3PH QO panel doesn't have a main breaker like a service entrance would. It's a lug panel, 18 slots I think, or maybe 24.
Saves quite a bit of $. I saw no reason to have yet another breaker in there. That's on my 20hp PP.
As mentioned my 10hp has 3 machines wired on a split trough, no panel. They all have fused disconnects by the machine with the right size fuse for each machine.

thermite said:

Good points, though QO can be "funny" and trip in a New York Minute - as they were meant to do - off the back of the nature of the causative event.

FWIW-not-much? "Fuses" need looked-up as to their many and varied specifics as well. Loads under 135% of nominal rating may not activate some of them at all.

I'm OK with wire for max, but breaker for LESS.

40A on the input unless and UNTIL a 50 A or even 60 A is proven to be needed.

10, 15, 20, 30 A on the output.. unless and UNTIL ... etc.

One dasn't want chronic "nuisance" trips, but if a fuse or breaker does not EVER trip?

It is probably oversized for its mission, and not much protection against anything but a dead-short. If even.

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In this case the phase perfect knows when to stop, and will protect itself. The breaker is just there to essentially prevent fire if the PP should fail. No breaker will protect semiconductors, except maybe from overtemp, but it's very unlikely the trip curve of the breaker will match up in any meaningful way.

A 50 Amp breaker is just large enough to avoid nuisance trips, and from what I can tell has a trip curve just above what the phase perfect limits are. Give the electronics a chance to do their job, then cut them off as soon as they don't to prevent fire or damage to wiring.

Thanks. 50a sounds ok as the mill is 25a and the bandsaw and timesaver are both 20a. As I said, I could run any two theoretically.

SND, Right so that’s a main lug panel. Technically any sub panel in the same building can be main lug but having a main breaker there is also allowable and just adds extra protection.

Strostkovy said:

In this case the phase perfect knows when to stop, and will protect itself. The breaker is just there to essentially prevent fire if the PP should fail. No breaker will protect semiconductors, except maybe from overtemp, but it's very unlikely the trip curve of the breaker will match up in any meaningful way.

A 50 Amp breaker is just large enough to avoid nuisance trips, and from what I can tell has a trip curve just above what the phase perfect limits are. Give the electronics a chance to do their job, then cut them off as soon as they don't to prevent fire or damage to wiring.

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Old26 said:

Thanks. 50a sounds ok as the mill is 25a and the bandsaw and timesaver are both 20a. As I said, I could run any two theoretically.

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Old26 said:

SND, Right so that’s a main lug panel. Technically any sub panel in the same building can be main lug but having a main breaker there is also allowable and just adds extra protection.

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Call it "my personal convenience", but there's more to it than that.

I tend to want "main lug" load centers right on the same surface and "in same-glance-eyeshot of" as wotever their upstream be. That's so it is easy to disconnect them and "visible" that they have been.

NFPA 70 has a "lot" of examples as to what is safe or less-so, otherwise.

Also how to equip a main-lug load center with a feed CB that is NOT at the head of the bus backplane. See also special hold-down locks for those.

And this is not a new need.

The challenge with a Main-breaker panel is that they are inexpensive - and STOCKED - only in larger Ampacity main breaker sizes than what we really want to use for this sort of application in a small shop.

Common ones start around 100/125 A and go only UP. I haven't seen a 30 A main or a 60 A main since the 1950's. Even then, it was in areas where a Rural Electric Co-Op was serving consumers who had "all gas" homes and farms, even as to gas lights and gas fridge/freezers. Less than a dozen 40 or 60 Watt lights, a table-radio as no longer needed batteries, a shallow-well pump so we could have INDOOR toilets? We thot we had gone all "citified!"

One can ORDER a main-breaker panel nekkid, then order the main breaker FOR it in lesser ampacity, but by then it has gone serious costly. So.. we are down to putting a (fused) disconnect right above a main-lug panel.

Or buying the retainer clips [1], feeding it through a breaker - usually top-left and so MARKED - but stacked in the same column as the load-side breakers.

Buy yer "space count" accordingly, you at least have the "options" open to yah.

Not a thing wrong with leaving blank-off plates. Or adding some back, yah get a decent deal on used goods. Major-makers, whole new covers are out there as well - surface OR flush-mount.

[1] Rock a clip-in breaker off the bus, the clips are "cold" with any ordinary "load".
Do that with a breaker used as feed? The protruding clips might be "hot". Hence the retainer goods.