Possible to isolate Phase-Perfect generated noise from the mains?
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  1. #1
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    Default Possible to isolate Phase-Perfect generated noise from the mains?

    Just like the title says.
    My PT-3160 is a noisy sumbeech! And, I am getting real tired of it.
    When it is on, I can hear a distinct hum in many electronic devises around here.
    Most notably: stereo equipment, and ceiling fans.
    Last night I noticed a puddle of goop under one of my really expensive, impossible to repair, audio amplifiers.
    Upon further inspection, it is electrolyte from leaking power-supply capacitors! This amp was brand-new 2 years ago!
    No way these caps should have failed already. I am blaming my noisy Phase-Perfect!
    If the stereo system is on, with no signal (no music playing) it is silent.
    The second the Phase-Perfect is turned on: you hear a thump in the speakers, followed by a very audible hum/buzz.
    Turn the Phase-Perfect off, the noise immediately disappears!
    Same with the ceiling fans. Installed new fans when the Phase-Perfect filter caps failed and almost burnt my house down.
    Now, in the last week or so, the new fans are making strange noises.
    This can not be good for electronics. It just cant.
    There has to be a way to isolate this thing to prevent all this bullshit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Just like the title says.
    My PT-3160 is a noisy sumbeech! And, I am getting real tired of it.
    When it is on, I can hear a distinct hum in many electronic devises around here.
    Most notably: stereo equipment, and ceiling fans.
    Last night I noticed a puddle of goop under one of my really expensive, impossible to repair, audio amplifiers.
    Upon further inspection, it is electrolyte from leaking power-supply capacitors! This amp was brand-new 2 years ago!
    No way these caps should have failed already. I am blaming my noisy Phase-Perfect!
    If the stereo system is on, with no signal (no music playing) it is silent.
    The second the Phase-Perfect is turned on: you hear a thump in the speakers, followed by a very audible hum/buzz.
    Turn the Phase-Perfect off, the noise immediately disappears!
    Same with the ceiling fans. Installed new fans when the Phase-Perfect filter caps failed and almost burnt my house down.
    Now, in the last week or so, the new fans are making strange noises.
    This can not be good for electronics. It just cant.
    There has to be a way to isolate this thing to prevent all this bullshit.
    Sorry don't know the technical name, and maybe it is not the same thing at all, but we had some type of filter between incoming power and our cmm. It was supposed to "clean" the incoming supply of spikes or whatnot..? Maybe an idea for google search...

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    I would contact Phase-Perfect. We would be guessing the frequency spectrum that is causing the problems, its amplitude and other parameters. They should already have solutions that have been proven.

    I am sure that with some reactors and other filter components improvements could be made but why engineer it yourself?

    Now if you have a transformer that can be wired 1:1 in to out already sitting around of adequate size, you could try placing that ahead of the PP. The iron of the transformer is pretty lossy at high frequencies and might be helpful. But I would not go buying hardware to try without some help advice from PP.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Simmons View Post
    I would contact Phase-Perfect. We would be guessing the frequency spectrum that is causing the problems, its amplitude and other parameters. They should already have solutions that have been proven.

    I am sure that with some reactors and other filter components improvements could be made but why engineer it yourself?

    Now if you have a transformer that can be wired 1:1 in to out already sitting around of adequate size, you could try placing that ahead of the PP. The iron of the transformer is pretty lossy at high frequencies and might be helpful. But I would not go buying hardware to try without some help advice from PP.

    Bill
    It has been my experience that support from Phase-Technologies is less than desired.
    At one point they were flat out ignoring me (did you see where I mentioned this thing almost burnt my house down once?)
    My neighbor is an EE. His specialty is RF, so he knows a little something about noise, LOL.
    I am sure if I asked him for help, he would be all over it. But, he is swamped with work right now.
    The last thing he needs is me pestering him.

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    Wheelie,

    I hope PP has the interest as they should to advise you and supply parts to fix this annoying problem. You go messin' with a guys sources of music and well... that's like kickin' his dog, eh?

    If'n it were this old man, I would reach out to Mr. Carlson's Lab on Youtube and see what insight he might have for you. I know you are busy, but this young man on there is seriously gifted in electronics and a good teacher to boot. For instance,I don't think he's met a stereo problem he can't repair, just from watching his video's. This guy is the real deal in electronics and distortion.
    Heck, throw him a bone on his Patreon if he's helpful.

    Old Gus, fellow NAMCO owner

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    How badly do you want to solve the problem. You are not the only one making these complaints. The surest way is a motor/generator. The issue there other than cost is a generator large enough to handle inrush currents. This type of solution is over a hundred years old. Next is an RPC. American Rotary seem to be the biggest. Any of the others I can think of involve inverters which are again high frequency switches.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by gusmadison View Post
    Wheelie,

    I hope PP has the interest as they should to advise you and supply parts to fix this annoying problem. You go messin' with a guys sources of music and well... that's like kickin' his dog, eh?

    If'n it were this old man, I would reach out to Mr. Carlson's Lab on Youtube and see what insight he might have for you. I know you are busy, but this young man on there is seriously gifted in electronics and a good teacher to boot. For instance,I don't think he's met a stereo problem he can't repair, just from watching his video's. This guy is the real deal in electronics and distortion.
    Heck, throw him a bone on his Patreon if he's helpful.

    Old Gus, fellow NAMCO owner
    Ohh, I am familiar with Mr. Carlson. Him and Xraytonyb are two of my favorite night-caps.
    I love electronics. It intrigues me greatly. I just don't understand it.

    edit: ohh-yea, Pit-Stop rules! LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    How badly do you want to solve the problem. You are not the only one making these complaints. The surest way is a motor/generator. The issue there other than cost is a generator large enough to handle inrush currents. This type of solution is over a hundred years old. Next is an RPC. American Rotary seem to be the biggest. Any of the others I can think of involve inverters which are again high frequency switches.

    Tom
    Don't think for one second I haven't considered swapping to a big rotary!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gusmadison View Post
    Wheelie,

    I hope PP has the interest as they should to advise you and supply parts to fix this annoying problem. You go messin' with a guys sources of music and well... that's like kickin' his dog, eh?

    If'n it were this old man, I would reach out to Mr. Carlson's Lab on Youtube and see what insight he might have for you. I know you are busy, but this young man on there is seriously gifted in electronics and a good teacher to boot. For instance,I don't think he's met a stereo problem he can't repair, just from watching his video's. This guy is the real deal in electronics and distortion.
    Heck, throw him a bone on his Patreon if he's helpful.

    Old Gus, fellow NAMCO owner
    I don't think Paul Carlson has ever found an electronics problem he couldn't solve. That guy is SMART! He doesn't mess with industrial stuff very often but when he does I'm all ears.

    My limited amount of playing around with Phase Perfects I have found them to be very noisy. How they passed all the FCC tests and whatnot I don't know, but then again I'm not familiar with the testing requirements.

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    How much pain and punishment do you want to endure? I can recall from your earlier posts about continued problems among others, nearly burning down the house and causing wide spread destruction, the heat and noise inside, capacitor failure, low to no support, now this plus whatever awaits you in the future. What you have is getting old and electronics do not love heat. How many thousands have you spent on this beast already? How much longer before it have to be replaced? I can almost guarantee more to come.

    My avatar represents my philosophy. Simple, copper and iron. It will last several lifetimes and still be doing what it does best. The only noise is a dirty magnet.

    Copper and iron are pretty much immune to these problems.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    My avatar represents my philosophy. Simple, copper and iron. It will last several lifetimes and still be doing what it does best.

    Tom
    Ohh, I get it! I should change my avatar to this:

    30189448.jpg

    I drive a common-rail diesel truck now. And, it has given me more problems than the pictured mechanical pump ever did. I get it.
    If it gives me one more major problem, it will no longer be a common rail!

    Same with my 12v power supply.
    I have two. One is a big solid-state Astron 70a unit. Huge transformer, giant caps, weighs a ton. Built like a tank, dead silent, and uber reliable.
    Then there is the 90a switcher (Cascade APS-90). Just like the PP, it is a noisy POS.
    If I don't use the charge controller and a battery with the Cascade switcher, I get the exact same results I am getting from the PP!

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    OK, you HAVE the PP, and no reason why you cannot use it.

    YES, there are filters. They can be expensive, but so are houses.

    I would have suggested a commercial line filter, BUT.... remember, first, know your enemy... in this case it means needing to have some idea what is the frequency range that is a problem. We can suspect all we want, but we do not KNOW unless and until the line-side of the PP is looked at with some instrumentation, .the simplest being a good 'scope, preferably one with input isolation that can stand the voltage, which I presume is 230V (115V to ground)

    OK... SPECULATING..... Probably the frequencies are fairly low, in the low tens of kHz, but possibly just high enough to not be directly audible..

    Most typical filters for the line are for somewhat higher frequencies, in the radio range, over 100 kHz. So a standard commercial filter MAY not be effective, but of course we do not know enough to be sure.

    The PP has an input power factor corrector. Those ALWAYS have an inductor in series with the input, which automatically reduces the frequency range that is fed back into the line. That is why I "speculate" that the frequency range is low.

    Now, first thing is to make sure that the capacitors that PP wants changed e very 3 years have been changed. Some of them may be at fault here. I do not know where they are located, so I am "speculating" that some may be input filter components, which would be normal to have.

    Now for some techie-talk.... There is "differential mode" noise, and there is "common mode" noise. Either may be at fault here, or both.

    Differential mode means line-to-line noise that would be affected by a plain capacitor across the power line, one that you can put in without much of an issue. That would be a good test, just a motor run or power factor correcting capacitor, properly rated for the 230V line, put across the power going to the PP. See if it makes a difference. Size is not super critical, most any ought to make some difference, if you have a choice I'd maybe go for a 20 mF size, but try what you have.

    Common mode noise is on BOTH lines, relative to ground. Nearly anything that is similar to a VFD will have that. It is due to small timing differences between IGBTs, typically, although there can be other causes. Any input filter that is rated to handle common mode signals should at least reduce this type noise. It is usually a high frequency, because the timing differences are small.

    For common mode, the capacitor test is from each line to neutral. Do both at once, preferably with same size capacitor. Not to actual ground, because the other equipment being affected is in many cases connected line to neutral.

    BTW, this test is more comprehensive, as it tends to filter BOTH differential and common mode. Yes, a fairly crude test, but it is good if you do not have the test equipment. Just see if the noise is affected, hopefully cut down a bit.

    Commercial filters have ratings that include the "response" vs frequency for both differential and common mode (also called "CM") noise. The response may be just a table of numbers, with a "dB" loss at 4 or 5 frequencies ov er the range, or it may be a graph. A "6 dB" loss indicates a halving of voltage, which is 1/4 of the power. I'd want more in a case such as yours, but it comes at a reasonably stiff price for low frequencies.

    I'd hold off for now, until you have checked with the capacitor test, but in general, without knowing more, I'd favor a filter with as much filtering at between 10 and 20 kHz as possible. That is expensive, so the test is useful to see if a simple solution is workable.

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