Possible to isolate Phase-Perfect generated noise from the mains? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Phase Perfect recently came out with a new 3rd generation, supposed to be IEEE 519 compliant, 480V architecture, easier to replace filter capacitor so I was told on the phone a few months ago(they weren't out yet then). It would be good to inquire about more details on this newer filtering, specs etc.

    Extra EMI filtering was an option on the previous PT models but had to be done at the factory, apparently not an add on, I asked, and most of us didn't know it was available when buying ours so never got it added.

    I've been debating my options for a while too, the small things I tried, plug in filter/more caps did nothing.
    I bought a Line Reactor not too long ago to put ahead of my 20hp PT-355 to see if it would knock a fair bit of it down, but haven't done it yet. Wanted to see how to properly use my oscilloscope first to hopefully see if it did improve things or not(probably $ down the drain but oh well) and that's on the back burner too but I hope to get to it in Jan. Main reason for delay is space in my utility room and where I have to mount it, rewire, pita.

    As far as I remember being told the white 2nd gen units are 5khz IGBT's. The older blue sound like they were higher, and didn't bother other electronics down the line nearly as much.

    I was debating a big 3phase generator lately, but that'd be a bit noisy and they're $$$ to run. So if the line reactor doesn't work enough, I may just buy one of these 3rd gen PP with whatever extra EMI option there is, if there still is one, and see how it goes. My first experience with a Rotary wasn't great, so been quite uninterested in them since. I'm also limited on how much power I can waste and start here, PP are way more efficient. Don't entirely want to spent another $10k now, but we'll see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Phase Perfect recently came out with a new 3rd generation, supposed to be IEEE 519 compliant, 480V architecture, easier to replace filter capacitor so I was told on the phone a few months ago(they weren't out yet then). It would be good to inquire about more details on this newer filtering, specs etc.

    Extra EMI filtering was an option on the previous PT models but had to be done at the factory, apparently not an add on, I asked, and most of us didn't know it was available when buying ours so never got it added.

    I've been debating my options for a while too, the small things I tried, plug in filter/more caps did nothing.
    I bought a Line Reactor not too long ago to put ahead of my 20hp PT-355 to see if it would knock a fair bit of it down, but haven't done it yet. Wanted to see how to properly use my oscilloscope first to hopefully see if it did improve things or not(probably $ down the drain but oh well) and that's on the back burner too but I hope to get to it in Jan. Main reason for delay is space in my utility room and where I have to mount it, rewire, pita.

    As far as I remember being told the white 2nd gen units are 5khz IGBT's. The older blue sound like they were higher, and didn't bother other electronics down the line nearly as much.

    I was debating a big 3phase generator lately, but that'd be a bit noisy and they're $$$ to run. So if the line reactor doesn't work enough, I may just buy one of these 3rd gen PP with whatever extra EMI option there is, if there still is one, and see how it goes. My first experience with a Rotary wasn't great, so been quite uninterested in them since. I'm also limited on how much power I can waste and start here, PP are way more efficient. Don't entirely want to spent another $10k now, but we'll see.
    Why deal with a company does not support older products, sells a very expensive product with obvious issues and then dodges you when you try to get things resolved. Now they have a new one, does that mean no support for the ones W K has now? And you are going to spend 10K to test the new one for them? You are nuts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    Now they have a new one, does that mean no support for the ones W K has now?
    You miss the point. This is a 'feature', not a bug. The feature is called non-backwards compatibility. This makes the company a lot of
    money because

    a) no need to provide service or support for obsolete items.
    b) increases sales for the 'new thing.'

    Lots of companies do this. I do not deal with any of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    Why deal with a company does not support older products, sells a very expensive product with obvious issues and then dodges you when you try to get things resolved. Now they have a new one, does that mean no support for the ones W K has now? And you are going to spend 10K to test the new one for them? You are nuts.
    My 10hp blue unit is well over 30,000hrs of daily use by now, if not 40,000, never 1 problem, and way, way, way better than the RPC it replaced. I changed the filter caps in it last year, which was a PITA, and it turned out the old ones were still fine.

    My 20HP white unit, after running the CNC and compressor for 6-7 years, I only realized there was a bit of harmonics feedback once it was moved to the new detached shop. Induction cooktop doesn't like it, so I flip that breaker off when I run the cnc's. In my case it hasn't done any damage that I know of, nor has anyone else really reported any, nothing like what Wheelie had the other year, but his is a 60hp unit and in way hotter temperatures than where mine is, and there may have been other issues with the tandem design as its no more, as far as I can tell.
    It is annoying and worrying though, and I hope this is part of what this newest generation solved(or improved on) I'll try to get more info soon.

    A few people had issues with older blue units not being supported/repairable when new white model came on and blue parts ran out, they're not the first company this happens with and I can see why they'd do it. How many small private companies still support 20yr old custom small batch electronic products? how many big multi nationals do(like appliances?) CNC builders? good luck or be prepared to pay a lot or just throw it out.

    Yes, a bit more details/info/confidence would be nice, and it looks like they've been working on improving this harmonic feedback issue(I hope so anyway) and to improve other features of the units. I guess if it was all that easy they'd have 1 competitor by now, but so far in 20 years nobody else has stepped up with a better product. I can only assume that this newest generation will be even better than the last 2, that still keep my machines running.

    If I can get good reassurance that these potential problems are solved or improved a lot anyway, I'll gladly pay the $10k(cad) no problem if it gets me another 10+years of hopefully trouble free operation.
    I'd still like to get a few more years out of my white 20hp unit though, cause I don't like throwing out things that otherwise work, so I'll see how a line reactor does with the white unit and report back on that. Blue one looks intent on outliving me, so we'll see.

    Chances are that Wheelie would have been much better off with 2x 30hp units separate, instead of the 60hp style, for a few reasons but eh if I had a time machine...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    You miss the point. This is a 'feature', not a bug. The feature is called non-backwards compatibility. This makes the company a lot of
    money because

    a) no need to provide service or support for obsolete items.
    b) increases sales for the 'new thing.'

    Lots of companies do this. I do not deal with any of them.
    Hmm.. one of technology's faster-moving fields, electronics are. Has to be. Couldn't afford it AT ALL were it not constantly learning, adapting, and improving.

    And yet "non-backwards compatibility" is all that matters? EVERYTHING has a "service life", Jim. Even the universe. And all IN it.

    Guess we are SOL as far as returning you to the factory in exchange for yer less opinionated Grand Dad, then? Or would it not be worth a $10,000 risk to see if really he WAS less opinionated?

    Must be a right bitch these days finding corn-cobs for lack of "backward compatibility" amongst long-gone Monkey-Ward catalogs or follow-on too-DAMNED-soft bum-fodder paper-makers, yah?

    And we wonder why you come across as such a callused old "hard ass"?

    Or is it just a pain in the same?


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    "one of technology's faster-moving fields, electronics are..."

    Yoda you thank. But don't dice with me about vintage electronics. I can still buy replacement parts, and get
    full schematics for things like this. You young punks weren't even alive ....



    Face it my friend - Phase Perfect _could_ support their older haredware, as a convenience to their
    long term customers. They don't, and that is a very carefully calculated move to maximize their
    bottom line.

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    When does it become more economical to have true 3 phase brought in compared to the initial and maintenance costs of creating 3 phase?

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    When does it become more economical to have true 3 phase brought in compared to the initial and maintenance costs of creating 3 phase?

    Tom
    "Depends on the situation". Europe, most of "modern" Asia already HAVE it, close as the kerb, due to a different architecture, "last leg" of delivery. And yet it can still be costly due more to the "civils" than the wire. Permits, but not-only. Transformer and upline beefing-up.

    Most places tend to use but a quarter to a third or so the power USA wires for.

    Bog-standard 200A Square-D QO 240 VAC split-phase, Sterling home. 400A & 600A small/medium industrial spaces.

    60 A Schneider Telemechanique main breaker off 250 VAC per leg 3-Phase, our HKG flat. Classed as upscale, if not also luxuriously equipped by local standards.

    Lots of folks have less than half that electricity budget. Gas and bicycle-delivered BOTTLED gas are still a big deal. PRC still uses a lot of coke briquets, family residences, businesses alike, and more than a few cookers are still low-grade gasoline or kerosene fired. Modern machine hall but heated by coal. Staff eating food cooked over kerosene. Trip home on mass transit rail, electric moped bike or motor-scooter?

    Uk is modern enough. so, too, most of the Continet. But an EU residence might only have 60A single-phase off ONE leg of the 3-P - the other legs shared-out to adjacent residences. Folks are not as profligate about power use. Nor the waste of it.

    Yew Ass Aye, 3-P is generally further away, can cost ten thousand US$, 20 thousand US$. And up -yah have to run trench or do holes and poles, any significant distance. And all with right-of-way paperwork or equivalent.

    Or already "be there" other side of the wall, some leased spaces, and STILL not be a cheap non-recurring/installation cost.

    And then there is "demand" billing.

    Which is already penetrating single-phase, "residential" too, and for long years, some jurisdictions. Mine -Dominion Virginia Power- is one of those.

    Were there more cheap and easy answers? There'd be far fewer RPC's and VFD's.

    But there ain't fewer. Seems to be MORE as time passes, actually.

    Diaspora from medium machine-halls to more shops, but smaller and more widely dispersed as the machines in them prove more productive and those who own them more flexible in doing what once required a larger shop, more hands, on lower-trhoughput manual machinery? Seems so - just off the back of what's afoot "Right here on PM".

    Progress. Whether it was what we THOUGHT we wished for or never, it is what we ourselves have built.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    When does it become more economical to have true 3 phase brought in compared to the initial and maintenance costs of creating 3 phase?

    Tom
    I'd pay $50k right now if I could get real 3ph from the pole, plain fact is they won't, so I can't.
    If I want it, I'm the one that has to move to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    When does it become more economical to have true 3 phase brought in compared to the initial and maintenance costs of creating 3 phase?

    Tom
    20K. I am 80' from a 3P pole. And then I get the demand charges and all that BS

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    When does it become more economical to have true 3 phase brought in compared to the initial and maintenance costs of creating 3 phase?

    Tom
    I was wondering the same question, but also wondering if it would not be more economical to run multiple VFDs instead of a PP? Rotary was my only option for shop#2 in Tx (VFDs were just coming out and pricey). Weighing my options on new place, real 3ph and PP are even, but only because power co wants a 5k deposit, I need to do it at some point, just not wanting to spend that # today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    When does it become more economical to have true 3 phase brought in compared to the initial and maintenance costs of creating 3 phase?

    Tom
    That is another (VERY) sour subject with me! Documented elsewhere on this site.
    When I was in the process of moving in, and upgrading the service to the property from 200amps to 600amps:
    The project manager (Micheal Sanford A name I am not likely to forget) told me 3-ph was out, don't even ask!
    After the PP almost burnt my house down, the guy from the power-co that helped me figure out what was going on asked me:
    Why didn't you opt for 3-ph? You are on phase A & B. The neighbor behind you has phase C. We could have easily pulled that across your back yard.
    You want to talk about one pissed off redneck?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    That is another (VERY) sour subject with me! Documented elsewhere on this site.
    When I was in the process of moving in, and upgrading the service to the property from 200amps to 600amps:
    The project manager (Micheal Sanford A name I am not likely to forget) told me 3-ph was out, don't even ask!
    After the PP almost burnt my house down, the guy from the power-co that helped me figure out what was going on asked me:
    Why didn't you opt for 3-ph? You are on phase A & B. The neighbor behind you has phase C. We could have easily pulled that across your back yard.
    You want to talk about one pissed off redneck?
    Some rednecks are pleased to make a f**king career out of being "pissed off".

    Others, not so much.

    What has changed? Gotten wiser, maybe?

    Pull that damned wire. Peddle a used P-P. Get laid. For fun.
    Not necessarily in that order!

    You've already BEEN f**ked, yah?

    No need to STAY that way for the braggin' rights off the back of it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Some rednecks are pleased to make a f**king career out of being "pissed off".

    Others, not so much.

    What has changed? Gotten wiser, maybe?

    Pull that damned wire. Peddle a used P-P. Get laid. For fun.
    Not necessarily in that order!

    You've already BEEN f**cked, yah? No need to STAY that way.


    Easier said than done now.
    I put 35 yards of concrete in the way that I am not about to trench through. Just the dirt-work now would be $20k and effectively ruin my apron.
    And, to be painfully honest: if I never have to hire another contractor again? That will be soon enough. (Gilbert wont let me do the digging, I asked)
    I will have no problem swapping to a big RPC myself if it comes to that. No contractor needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Easier said than done now.
    I put 35 yards of concrete in the way that I am not about to trench through. Just the dirt-work now would be $20k and effectively ruin my apron.
    And, to be painfully honest: if I never have to hire another contractor again? That will be soon enough. (Gilbert wont let me do the digging, I asked)
    I will have no problem swapping to a big RPC myself if it comes to that. No contractor needed.
    Yah ain't runnin' a bleedin' interstate highway right-of-way or underground rail subway line.

    Yah push a conduit UNDER that 35 yard apron. It ain't as deep as an ICBM missile silo. No need to trench it.

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    You want to get a pipe under concrete, the easiest way to do it is to dig a hole to one side, a longish hole.... Dig a hole the other side to aim at. Then "water drill" it through.

    Hose on the back end, turn on the water, push it in, aiming well so it comes out where you want. Water and dirt comes out, keep pushing it in. Add sections of pipe as needed.

    Messy as heck, low tech, cheap, and works well if you do not have boulders in the soil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Yah ain't runnin' a bleedin' interstate highway right-of-way or underground rail subway line.

    Yah push a conduit UNDER that 35 yard apron. It ain't as deep as an ICBM missile silo. No need to trench it.
    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    You want to get a pipe under concrete, the easiest way to do it is to dig a hole to one side, a longish hole.... Dig a hole the other side to aim at. Then "water drill" it through.

    Hose on the back end, turn on the water, push it in, aiming well so it comes out where you want. Water and dirt comes out, keep pushing it in. Add sections of pipe as needed.

    Messy as heck, low tech, cheap, and works well if you do not have boulders in the soil.
    Yea, I know all about it. Horizontal boring. I was a heavy equipment tech for a while in a former life.
    There are machines that do it for you. "Moles" are what they are known as in the trade. Worked on a bunch of them.
    Been on job-sites watching them many times.
    I asked the power-co guy if it was an option. NO was the answer.
    They wouldn't need to go under the slab to get the C-phase to the X.
    It is from the X to the panel that is the problem. The parallel run they installed for my service would not work if I went 3-ph.
    And, they can't abandon it. They would have to dig it up. And, because my apron goes right over top of it, all the way to the easement?
    They would have to go through or remove the concrete.

    I don't have $50k to spend on my electrical service again anyways (nor am I willing).

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    Wheelie points out one of the usual things "code rules" - often with some sensible base reason. I had part of water main to my house redone summer '19, and they *had* to dig it up, because they are not allowed to trench near all the other utilities, and not allowed to trench more than a few feet regardless. Too many incidents of things being hit. (Like near my shop, where in spite of lots of locating efforts, contractor still hit a gas main at the base of the street, and took out the gas for the whole block.)

    But one of Bryan's rules (right up there with "do cad modeling before buying a 5-axis machine" is "only buy existing houses/buildings and make sure they have correct power...")

    Oh, and just *upgrading* power can cost a pretty penny too - I spent $10s of K in 2011 to upgrade the current shop....

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    It could be worth checking with MTE or some other builder of transformer and harmonic filter equipment. I think more details from PP, proper scoping of the actual harmonics range happening and force of it (5khz or whatever) would all have to be checked with engineering and see if it works with any of these filters. Maybe just a line reactor will be enough, they are quite low cost.

    Maybe check again with PP on your end too and see if they've done anything more for filtering or solutions to this, hopefully they came up with something better during their newest design, hopefully something to prevent damage if those caps fail prematurely too. But as mentioned there could have also been other issues with the dual units design as they're single unit now up to 100hp.

    Regarding Rotaries, the 7.5hp I had was loud as fuck, 80+decibels, sounded like a diesel tractor and ran so hot it couldn't be touched. I sure as hell hope it was a problem with it and that they're not all like that. Tried to search for videos of people running them to get an idea of their noise/operation, but not much on youtube, just blah blah and nobody turning the damn thing on. And just looking at it again, I'd need at least a 40hp size(probably more like 50), and the 40hp AR ADX is like $4600USD(with ul listing, not sure if they're csa too) so a new 30hp PP is only about $2k USD more, and really a 20hp pp will still outperform it for only a few hundred $ more. I only have 200amp/240 on the shop here, so wasting it isn't much of an option. Though I guess many build their own rotaries, but not many of us with a few hundred K$ in machines to tie to it wanna screw with that either.



    MTE Harmonic Filters | Harmonic Distortion Filters

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Regarding Rotaries, the 7.5hp I had was loud as fuck, 80+decibels, sounded like a diesel tractor and ran so hot it couldn't be touched. I sure as hell hope it was a problem with it and that they're not all like that. Tried to search for videos of people running them to get an idea of their noise/operation, but not much on youtube, just blah blah and nobody turning the damn thing on. And just looking at it again, I'd need at least a 40hp size(probably more like 50), and the 40hp AR ADX is like $4600USD(with ul listing, not sure if they're csa too) so a new 30hp PP is only about $2k USD more, and really a 20hp pp will still outperform it for only a few hundred $ more. I only have 200amp/240 on the shop here, so wasting it isn't much of an option. Though I guess many build their own rotaries, but not many of us with a few hundred K$ in machines to tie to it wanna screw with that either.
    Funny, the neighbor has a 30hp AR converter over there. It is quiet as a mouse.
    My PP makes way more noise than his rotary. And, the "noise" from the rotary is far more pleasant. The PP is just plain fatiguing.

    He also has an old blue canned PP, 10hp I believe. It is out of commission with bad capacitors though. Imagine that, LOL

    EDIT: I should elaborate. The noise from my PP is obnoxious when the fans are running. When the fans are not running, it is not loud at all.
    When the fans are running, it is louder than the air-compressor.
    It makes a weird buzz when a haas spindle is ramping to 12k RPM. Otherwise, it sounds like a small air-leak when the fans are not running.
    Last edited by wheelieking71; 12-09-2019 at 04:23 PM.

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