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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    It could be worth checking with MTE or some other builder of transformer and harmonic filter equipment. I think more details from PP, proper scoping of the actual harmonics range happening and force of it (5khz or whatever) would all have to be checked with engineering and see if it works with any of these filters. Maybe just a line reactor will be enough, they are quite low cost.
    I have been digging those - plus EMC/RFI filters - through the past night.

    Now have easily a dozen types and nearly a hundred units marked for price research collected. Got too weary of looking at them to delve all that deeply into the technical data.

    There is NO shortage of solutions, nor technical and selection data out there. This issue affects so much more than P-P and has done for so long, it's just a matter of finding a good fit to the need from amongst "too many" options, not too few.

    AFAIK, my 10 HP "white case" P-P is the same generation as Wheelies - EG: NOT the most-recent revision. The manual specifically calls for replacing caps at 3-year intervals.

    While mine hasn't seen even a fraction the use his has, and is not "yet" giving me grief, I'd rather get AHEAD of what seems to be a coming degradation.

    NB: With a 246 VAC utility mains, newest AC motor from around 1970, I was looking at inserting a bucking autotransformer.

    Looks to be about the same money to insert one if not TWO Line Reactors, plus an EMC/RFI filter, get a noticeable Voltage reduction (roughly 6 Volts each stage), and gain noise filtering as a byproduct, perhaps not need bucking at all.

    More when I know more.

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    I put in a Phoenix phase converter panel 50 hp and a toshiba idler motor on a 400 amp single phase input. This has worked awesome for a year now lot less than AR. Good support contrary to comments I’ve read. Like anything if they tell you you need x amount of java on your transformer do it! Run my whole shop on it no problems. Had other rotarys always seem to loose the idler in a couple years with no fix by the manufacturer of course just a new one.


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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Funny, the neighbor has a 30hp AR converter over there. It is quiet as a mouse.
    My PP makes way more noise than his rotary. And, the "noise" from the rotary is far more pleasant. The PP is just plain fatiguing.

    He also has an old blue canned PP, 10hp I believe. It is out of commission with bad capacitors though. Imagine that, LOL
    I finally found a couple videos of the AR ADX models running, the rpc I had definitely didn't sounds like that.
    I guess I'll have to keep that option in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    It could be worth checking with MTE or some other builder of transformer and harmonic filter equipment. I think more details from PP, proper scoping of the actual harmonics range happening and force of it (5khz or whatever) would all have to be checked with engineering and see if it works with any of these filters. Maybe just a line reactor will be enough, they are quite low cost. ...
    Eliminating RFI from a unit like this, with or without any help from PP (good luck with that, this would impact their bottom line) is tougher than it looks. This is one of the things I've
    done in the past, and done well. Proper sheilding and bonding techniques are not done without a fair bit of fuss, and simply putting line and load inductances in won't do much without
    the rest.

    One can spend a great deal of money and effort, and see a 15 or 20 percent reduction in radiated or conducted out of band intereference. Step one as already mentioned is to
    analyze what is really going on here using the correct test gear. Start there. The nature of the interference will lead you to the correct solutions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post

    Regarding Rotaries, the 7.5hp I had was loud as fuck, 80+decibels, sounded like a diesel tractor and ran so hot it couldn't be touched. I sure as hell hope it was a problem with it and that they're not all like that.
    MTE Harmonic Filters | Harmonic Distortion Filters
    My AR RPC is as quiet as a church mouse and you can hold your hand on it after 20 hours of use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    My AR RPC is as quiet as a church mouse and you can hold your hand on it after 20 hours of use.
    My Phase-craft + Weg 10 HP is no match. But BFD. Not horrible, either.

    I onct thought of migrating it to the garage/shop/annex ATTIC. Shares a wall with the Master BR. Empty room if I am in the shop.

    If'n I ferget to shut-off the RPC and head for a nap? That'll remind me!

    Short lead to an E-Stop on the wall could save trekking three levels down back to the shop!


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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Eliminating RFI from a unit like this, with or without any help from PP (good luck with that, this would impact their bottom line) is tougher than it looks. This is one of the things I've
    done in the past, and done well. Proper sheilding and bonding techniques are not done without a fair bit of fuss, and simply putting line and load inductances in won't do much without
    the rest.
    Yah, well.. I even wrote a book on it onct. Northrop-Page for US Army Sig C. 1968-69 was a long time ago though.

    The 'anecdotal evidence" indicates this is not an "all P-P all the time" problem.

    WHEN we know more -and we assuredly WILL know more in due course - it will probably turn out to be an early warning of degradation underway.

    Meanwhile.. it seems to project the energy in the audio pass-band. May be riding a carrier, but...

    The "good news" about that is if/as/when a workable filter rig is sorted, other folks can copy a recommendation and not need an O'Scope to know if it worked.

    Any decent audio gear, or a cheap AM radio carried near, set to clear at either end of the dial where there are no stations, and it will rat itself out, one way or the other.

    My gut feeling is that it will be a VFD-style "line reactor" that gets the job done, not an EMC/RFI filter.

    Common as they are, nearly all with any current-carrying capability are 3-Phase. Those can WORK on single-phase, RTFM, the makers have an answer. Just not as well as they do on 3-P.

    Still searching as to even 50 A single-phase.

    Not that it is exactly rocket insemination to make yer own.

    I'm just the both of lazy AND "risk averse". CYA w/r DIY - most of all with what I'd suggest to OTHERS.

    I want NEMA / UL / CSA / CE - wotever ....certs ....already ON it.

    THIS.. of course, is where Phase Technologies SHOULD be there, ahead of the entire lot of us with a "if you have the need.." already engineered and tested short list of solutions. Also an upgrade kit to be field-applied, and/or or flat-rate factory upgrade.

    Even to their own SKU & prices for "option.." wotever.

    Same way KB-Penta has Corcom/workalikes house-branded to sell under their own SKU. Or Siemans, GE/Fanuc, Yaskawa, etc. list line and load reactors they probably buy-in, "private labeled", rather than wind and impregnate under their own roof.

    "One-stop-shop" with "we recommend.." makes Warranty and Field Service support healthier, whether the optional goods justify a contribution margin or never.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Eliminating RFI from a unit like this, with or without any help from PP (good luck with that, this would impact their bottom line) is tougher than it looks. This is one of the things I've
    done in the past, and done well. Proper sheilding and bonding techniques are not done without a fair bit of fuss, and simply putting line and load inductances in won't do much without
    the rest.

    One can spend a great deal of money and effort, and see a 15 or 20 percent reduction in radiated or conducted out of band intereference. Step one as already mentioned is to
    analyze what is really going on here using the correct test gear. Start there. The nature of the interference will lead you to the correct solutions.

    Absolute rule number ONE in EMI fixing/remediation, is to "know thy enemy". That means to look at the line with spectrum analyzer, or even just a 'scope. Find out where in the spectrum the issues are.

    Right now, we have almost zero information as to what the "real" issue is, we are speculating, and giving "if it is this then...." answers. Without knowing what the real issues are, the frequency range in question, , it is next to impossible to recommend a solution that will work.

    I "suspect" the frequencies are not that high, due to the various descriptions of effects, but even an educated guess is not the same as data.

    Did we ever even get the results of a simple "put a capacitor across the line" test? Several of us have suggested that test, and it would actually tell a lot, in the absence of 'scope results or spectrum analyzer results. And it is a cheap test to make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    My Phase-craft + Weg 10 HP is no match. But BFD. Not horrible, either.

    I onct thought of migrating it to the garage/shop/annex ATTIC. Shares a wall with the Master BR. Empty room if I am in the shop.

    If'n I ferget to shut-off the RPC and head for a nap? That'll remind me!

    Short lead to an E-Stop on the wall could save trekking three levels down back to the shop!

    Just control a contactor with the light circuit. Turn the lights out, phase converter shuts off as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    My AR RPC is as quiet as a church mouse and you can hold your hand on it after 20 hours of use.
    Ditto, maybe not a mouse , but certainly not annoying and runs for hours and hours and gets warm to the touch , but not remotely hot.
    10hp American Rotary AD series


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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Absolute rule number ONE in EMI fixing/remediation, is to "know thy enemy". That means to look at the line with spectrum analyzer, or even just a 'scope. Find out where in the spectrum the issues are.

    Right now, we have almost zero information as to what the "real" issue is, we are speculating, and giving "if it is this then...." answers. Without knowing what the real issues are, the frequency range in question, , it is next to impossible to recommend a solution that will work.

    I "suspect" the frequencies are not that high, due to the various descriptions of effects, but even an educated guess is not the same as data.

    Did we ever even get the results of a simple "put a capacitor across the line" test? Several of us have suggested that test, and it would actually tell a lot, in the absence of 'scope results or spectrum analyzer results. And it is a cheap test to make.
    You are way over my head. I do not own or know how to use any electronic test equipment beyond a simple multi-meter.
    And, I am not about to go throwing electrical components across 400amp mains! You may know what you are doing. I do not.
    I would have to get the neighbor involved if you want technical data.
    As I mentioned: he is very busy right now. I am not going to bug him with this until he slows down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    Just control a contactor with the light circuit. Turn the lights out, phase converter shuts off as well.
    Been tapping closet lights off the room light for the same reason for two generations. Well - since we GOT electricity, early 1950's. Room lighting was gaslights, closet, barns & such kerosene lanterns.

    But in my present shop case, I'm an insulate then insulate some more energy cheapskate.

    Wintertime, 8 @ 100+ Watt [1] incandescent lamps are left on 24 X 7. They are all the shop heat I need to at least hold well above freezing, generally 45-55 F. Spring comes, they've gradually burnt-out, get LED's until the next winter.


    [1] 100 Watt lamps were legislated out of the market? 120W, 150W, 200W were not. Go figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    You are way over my head. I do not own or know how to use any electronic test equipment beyond a simple multi-meter.
    And, I am not about to go throwing electrical components across 400amp mains! You may know what you are doing. I do not.
    I would have to get the neighbor involved if you want technical data.
    As I mentioned: he is very busy right now. I am not going to bug him with this until he slows down.
    The delay is:

    - MANY among us have 'scopes. 66 years since I did NOT have at least one if not two or three. Even my Fluke "Scopemeter" flown all over the Telco world is now ancient.

    - SOME also have Phase-Perfects. I had TWO, but neither was acting-up. Donated my blue-case one to another member who has been delving into whether there might still be a route to repair.

    Grumbling about end-of-support life quite aside, they HAD earned a reputation for seriously long service as that sort of power electronics go. A "fix", even if a substitute or workaround could benefit many among us. Confirming there IS NO economical fix has value as well.

    - Not ALL Phase Perfects exhibit the problem that you - and a very few others only SO FAR - are reporting.

    "Lucky" are you? Only if your were drawing test-pilot wages!



    Filtering, I can roll in my sleep, even if it takes a 9-stage Chebyschev. I just do not WANT to depart from "listed" goods safe and readily available commercially.

    This ain't invent-the-wheel 1937 ham radio. There are quite reasonable codes and standard goods built to take the RISK out.

    The REAL goal is to find the CAUSE and either of a fix for it - or a preventive maintenance step that resets its clock. New capacitors at 3-year intervals - per the manual - do not seem to be that fix. DIFFERENT caps might be.

    Needs doin' before it shortens the life of the goods. Or even the owners off the back of a fire in OTHER goods in the residence.

    Phase Technologies MAY have already found and implemented such a fix?

    Lest we forget - this garbage on EITHER of line-side nor load side is NOT MEANT to "be there" in the first place. More than a few big hunks of Iron and Copper in a P-P that VFD do not even own. No shortage of capacitors, either

    However....UNTIL Phase technologies are more forthcoming as to SHARING what they know or have done? "For-fee" is OK. Put it on the damned menu so we can choose. TANSTAAFL.

    That older, second 10 HP P-P here isn't being replaced with a newer second P-P.

    RPC, rather.

    Telco pensioner, here. Lorraine's inverters of 50 and more years ago paint a P-P as redneck engineered cheap-seats in any case.

    Priced accordingly, of course!

    Two SECONDS a year of un-scheduled outage kinda sets a higher bar. Especially if your employers had at one time become minor legends for beating that figure.

    Nothing magical, actually. "Routine'ing", the SCHEDULED downtime, seamless cutover carrying the traffic, went on all the time to "make it so" that there were no surprises.

    Triple-redundant 3-Phase sourcing under-roof - well quad, given 2 P-P, one RPC, and the Diesel - is sorta "in the DNA" for me. Forgotten how else to act. Bad habit, even.



    But I make tests. For fun. Whenever I FEEL like it.

    Not chips. For a living. And NEED to do.

    Rest of you lot shouldn't have to do that off the wall Rube Goldberg stuff!

    What you PAID FOR was simpler. Hit the damned switch. Go earn a crust.

    And WITHOUT yer household appliances frying themselves. Not the food.

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    Focus man, Focus


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    The delay is:

    - MANY among us have 'scopes. 66 years since I did NOT have at least one if not two or three. Even my Fluke "Scopemeter" flown all over the Telco world is now ancient.

    - SOME also have Phase-Perfects. I had TWO, but neither was acting-up. Donated my blue-case one to another member who has been delving into whether there might still be a route to repair.

    Grumbling about end-of-support life quite aside, they HAD earned a reputation for seriously long service as that sort of power electronics go. A "fix", even if a substitute or workaround could benefit many among us. Confirming there IS NO economical fix has value as well.

    - Not ALL Phase Perfects exhibit the problem that you - and a very few others only SO FAR - are reporting.

    "Lucky" are you? Only if your were drawing test-pilot wages!



    Filtering, I can roll in my sleep, even if it takes a 9-stage Chebyschev. I just do not WANT to depart from "listed" goods safe and readily available commercially.

    This ain't invent-the-wheel 1937 ham radio. There are quite reasonable codes and standard goods built to take the RISK out.

    The REAL goal is to find the CAUSE and either of a fix for it - or a preventive maintenance step that resets its clock. New capacitors at 3-year intervals - per the manual - do not seem to be that fix. DIFFERENT caps might be.

    Needs doin' before it shortens the life of the goods. Or even the owners off the back of a fire in OTHER goods in the residence.

    Phase Technologies MAY have already found and implemented such a fix?

    Lest we forget - this garbage on EITHER of line-side nor load side is NOT MEANT to "be there" in the first place. More than a few big hunks of Iron and Copper in a P-P that VFD do not even own. No shortage of capacitors, either

    However....UNTIL Phase technologies are more forthcoming as to SHARING what they know or have done? "For-fee" is OK. Put it on the damned menu so we can choose. TANSTAAFL.

    That older, second 10 HP P-P here isn't being replaced with a newer second P-P.

    RPC, rather.

    Telco pensioner, here. Lorraine's inverters of 50 and more years ago paint a P-P as redneck engineered cheap-seats in any case.

    Priced accordingly, of course!

    Two SECONDS a year of un-scheduled outage kinda sets a higher bar. Especially if your employers had at one time become minor legends for beating that figure.

    Nothing magical, actually. "Routine'ing", the SCHEDULED downtime, seamless cutover carrying the traffic, went on all the time to "make it so" that there were no surprises.

    Triple-redundant 3-Phase sourcing under-roof - well quad, given 2 P-P, one RPC, and the Diesel - is sorta "in the DNA" for me. Forgotten how else to act. Bad habit, even.



    But I make tests. For fun. Whenever I FEEL like it.

    Not chips. For a living. And NEED to do.

    Rest of you lot shouldn't have to do that off the wall Rube Goldberg stuff!

    What you PAID FOR was simpler. Hit the damned switch. Go earn a crust.

    And WITHOUT yer household appliances frying themselves. Not the food.
    Or at least an easier way to test the caps. As it is now, you have to remove them (pain in the ass!)
    Then un-solder the shorting resistors (pain in the ass!). Test (easy once the cap is in your hand)
    Replace if out of spec. But, what if in spec? Put it back? For the amount of work involved vs. the cost of the caps?
    I don't think so!

    So, when my house almost burnt down: that was total input filter cap failure. The PP was throwing whatever its switching frequency is? back on the mains!
    This fried all kinds of shit. The guy from the power-co advised me to replace all my breakers (I did). And, a slew of other stuff was cooked.
    Only thing that happened down-stream of the PP was a cooked a mag-contactor in the brand-new at the time Brother. The haas's kept on chugging! LOL

    Anyways, the only thing I could check (dummy with a multi-meter) was output voltage of the PP.
    It was upwards of 280V! This was measured on "D-day":

    _storage_emulated_0_dcim_camera_20171221_162241.jpg
    _storage_emulated_0_dcim_camera_20171221_162320.jpg
    _storage_emulated_0_dcim_camera_20171221_162225.jpg

    That was: disconnects pulled for house/shop. And, all breakers and knife boxes thrown off down-stream of PP. And, PP energized and ON.
    Measured across the three phases. Not pictured was the input voltage. But, it was 240/241.
    If I powered the PP with the house live, the panel on the house had a loud 60hz buzz (this is how we initially discovered what was going on).
    I say it is a 60hz buzz because I have heard enough transformers humming away in my day to know what 60hz sounds like.

    Also, I saw well over 300volts when I first started looking at the 3-ph (house and shop 1-ph still energized) and haas's running.

    So, you see, the only tools at my immediate disposal (then and now) are my ears, and a multi-meter.
    I still check the 3-ph voltages regularly. This is the only way I have to see potential issues nearing. This is a problem!

    Moral of the story: I do not like switching electronics! Including switch-mode 12v power supplies, class-D amplifiers, and Phase-Perfect phase converters.

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    Sell the PP's and get a rotary.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Sell the PP's and get a rotary.

    Tom
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbowerks View Post
    I put in a Phoenix phase converter panel 50 hp and a......................
    Thanks for mentioning Phoenix, Turbo. They are local. Just got off the phone with them.

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    "This ain't invent-the-wheel 1937 ham radio."

    Not for nothing, but an amateur radio operator from 1937 would be one of the best
    people to analyze and solve an interference issue like this.

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    Default Possible to isolate Phase-Perfect generated noise from the mains?

    Keep in mind a Phase Perfect is basically just a typical inverter running on single phase input.

    And this “inverter” simply outputs a fixed 60 hertz 3-phase, (versus variable hertz for most inverters).

    So whatever filters, line reactors, etc. are recommended for inverters, would be a good place to start for a Phase Perfect phase converter...I would think.

    ToolCat

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    "This ain't invent-the-wheel 1937 ham radio."

    Not for nothing, but an amateur radio operator from 1937 would be one of the best
    people to analyze and solve an interference issue like this.
    I picked the year for a reason. One of my "two letter call sign" mentors was in the game well before the FCC existed and Amateur radio was formalized.

    After retiring, US Army Sig C, he HAD a pan adaptor. Resident in the same rack that mounted the recycled Marconi gear upside down so he didn't have to change the power switches of that Czarist Colonel Upizoff's design!



    If this s**t is indeed within the human audio pass-band?

    Any Pee Cee or uber-cellphone can display the spectrum and do so "non-contact" as far as not needing test leads.

    Wheelie can already HEAR it in the stereo system, after all.


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