Thread: Possible to isolate Phase-Perfect generated noise from the mains?

Originally Posted by cnctoolcat

Keep in mind a Phase Perfect is basically just a typical inverter running on single phase input.

Problem is - that ain't "typical".

And this “inverter” simply outputs a fixed 60 hertz 3-phase, (versus variable hertz for an actual inverter).

So whatever filters, line reactors, etc. are recommended for inverters, would be a good place to start for a Phase Perfect phase converter...I would think.

If ergs of power-transfer were a "vote", rather a lot of inverters ARE fixed @ 50 Hz or 60 Hz. Telco use the legacy, solar & wind more recently.

What is also "typical" is that a room full - or a BUILDING full - of batteries manage the input situatiion rather well! Those old Lorraine's expected traditional Telco neg 48 Dee Cee, and plenty of it.

Back when messing with S-100 alleged-computers, I lucked into one C&W was scrapping, bought it and repaired it.

12 U or so high rackmount. 80 lbs Avoir. Added about four times that mass in deep-discharge batteries, and it delivered the cleanest 120 VAC sine wave you could ask for.

At all of FIVE AMPS!

Far cry from FIFTY Amps @ 240 VAC, yah?

Ever I get around to sorting meself an affordable "salt water" battery pile?

Three separate bog-standard inverter units off the high-volume solar industry, connect the phasing option, and yah have yer three-phase AC.

For now, erg for erg, machine-tool type of loads and serious AMPACITY / Wattage?

Easily as important, "batteries not required", single-phase grid instead?

The Phase Perfect is still cheaper.

Originally Posted by ripperj

Focus man, Focus

Some few among us are BEING "foc'ed".

No need to beg for more of the same!

That's why we are working to find out how and what can be done about it so we can go find our own preferred flavour of "foc us" 'ing.

Originally Posted by wheelieking71

You are way over my head. I do not own or know how to use any electronic test equipment beyond a simple multi-meter.
And, I am not about to go throwing electrical components across 400amp mains! You may know what you are doing. I do not.
I would have to get the neighbor involved if you want technical data.
As I mentioned: he is very busy right now. I am not going to bug him with this until he slows down.

That's fair.

But, as far as problem solving, where we are at now is that there has been enough info given to suggest tests that would better zero-in on the problem.

So, until something like that is done, we are out of valid ideas.

Originally Posted by JST

That's fair.

But, as far as problem solving, where we are at now is that there has been enough info given to suggest tests that would better zero-in on the problem.

So, until something like that is done, we are out of valid ideas.

Point.

I even know how to intentionally "break" my white-case P-P. Or simulate that.

But If I did that?

I would not be assured of having addressed the same SOURCE of Wheelies' issue.

We need "eyes on", 'scope or common audio graphics analyzer display, of a P-P that is experiencing a "by it's own nature" degradation - not artificially induced.

Meanwhile back at "Chaos Court"?

I'm going to armour-up on general principles with "listed" and cert'ed line reactors and EMC/RFI filters.

The cost of all my 'puters and appliances isn't all that much greater than what I spent on the P-P

But I don't need the risk nor the effing NUISANCE of chasing so many OF them when filters are cheap, even if less than 100% on-target, passband-wise.

FO Artillery approach. Observed fires.

"Battery, one round. Will adjust".

Downside is I won't even KNOW if I did the right thing until... my OWN P-P lapses into truant behaviour.

If ever it even does do.

T'was ever thus, chasing edge-cases.

Sometimes BFBI prevention that puts errant electrons in fear of their very lives if they try to f**k you up is the only thing affordable, time-wise, if not also MONEY-wise. Can't let the silly buggers hold yer ass for RANSOM, can yah? Too many OF them.

Got other more important s**t to do in any busy life than to have to babysit the little Devils.

Most of the filters are aimed at what it appears may be higher frequency ranges than what he may be having trouble with.

Filters for that current etc are not cheap, and while they are less expensive than equipment and training, it may not be an effective means for diagnosis.... we used to call that the "shotgun" approach, and it is still used by most every car repair outfit..... It can work, but can rapidly get expensive.

This problem is not new, so if it has been tolerated so far, then it is cheaper overall to wait until the proper equipment and personnel are available. If they are not, well, then there is another issue, given the OP's stated level of expertise.

Wheelie's thread, not mine, but rather than scatter all this about any more than it is ALREADY scattered within PM, here's what I have just done for the "ranging" artillery rounds:

Environment:

Source of power. 1-P side:

Common 200 A single-phase "residential" service, Square-D QO panel, nominal 240 VAC steady at 245/246 for Donkey's Years.

====

ADDING IN SERIES with the feed to the P-P:

1, each leg, DCL-30 .575 mH @ 40A nominal, 460 VAC rated single-coil line inductor.

"Optimal"? No, not really. I'd rather I could have found 50 A or 60 A units.

Helpful? More so than a 3-P line reactor de-rated when used on Single-Phase. Or so I expect.

And they were CHEAP! $75.12, delivered for the pair.

====

Distribution of power, 3-P side:

10 HP P-P

====

ADDING in, series with all three legs of the 10 HP P-P's output:

1 each TCI "Sine-Guard" 3LR50A 3-P 60Hz 600V Max 50A Max Line Reactor.

Also cheap. $116.97, delivered.

That probably IS about "optimal" for protecting my old motors. Especially with what it hits next!

====

EGS/Hevi-Duty "Drive Isolation" 1:1 Delta-Wye transformer, 27 KVA [1]

.. into a Square-D QO 3-Phase panel, 5-wire Hubbells thereafter.

NB: I'm only dealing with a TEN HP P-P.

OTOH, my greatest single starting loads are but 5 HP (one, H-spindle of the combo mill) or 7 HP (either of Alzmetall DP, or HBX lathe, but never both at once) 3-Phase motors.

Juice pumps have been replaced with single-phase units. Everywhere.

HBX-360-BC's hydraulics, NOT coolant, only add another HP or so, and start either before (pressurized lube & variator control) or after (Mimik Tracer, if/as/when I ever get it FITTED!) the 7 HP final-drive motor.

NONE of it is run hard in any case. Under 30 A load, nearly always.

Read that as: Wheelie's 30 HP P-P rig would need to scale UP.

If even this approach gets the job done.

Which is not .. yet .. assured.

I'll look again at EMC/RFI filtering later.

Generally, it is for higher freq than we seem to have as the challenge, present case.

[1] 27 KVA because a Square-D transfer switch takes it off the P-P and onto an RPC with supplementary idlers which can go to over 20 HP. This is more of a playtoy "laboratory" than it is a chip-making "shop". Just Deal With That. Keeps me out of pubs and brothels, after all. What more could the lovely Lady Wife ask of Old Iron or Old Farts, either one, anyway?

[QUOTE=thermite;3456367]I picked the year for a reason. One of my "two letter call sign" mentors was in the game well before the FCC existed and Amateur radio was formalized.

Amateur radio was formalized before WW One. See for example, it's a great book:

Two Hundred Meters and Down: First Edition 1936: clinton b. deSoto: Amazon.com: Books

This was published by the ARRL:

American Radio Relay League - Wikipedia

They were started in 1914.

Originally Posted by thermite

I picked the year for a reason. One of my "two letter call sign" mentors was in the game well before the FCC existed and Amateur radio was formalized.

The quote-careless-curmudgeon:

Amateur radio was formalized before WW One.

Some thought that "formal". But it wasn't, really.

See Federal Communications Commission enabling legislation. 1934.

Also CCITT -> ITU and the Post & Telegraph treaties.

"Amateurs?" Were. Came to be recognized by sovereign governments as assets worth protecting and nurturing off the proven value of their "free R&D".

K4TJ's 'Day Job? HF station, Newfoundland, then MacArthurs' comms guru, GHQ South Pacific. Also ALASKCOM. etc. Had served FIVE US Presidents on "Night Watch", co-founded "MARS" by the time he retired, then Chaired the Intelsat Establishment hearings, CCITT.. etc. as a founding COMSAT VP.

The SSB rig was for fun in his retirement.

Bill Marconi had been one, too.

But it's like "virginity".

Once you start CHARGING for your favours, you are no longer classed entirely as an "amateur". Even if you still dabble in "for fun" side-deals when "off duty".



Bill's outfit's merger - the Wireless in Cable & Wireless - with Imperial Cables & Communications, 1931, pays my pension, yet today.

Originally Posted by thermite

Wheelie's thread, not mine, but rather than scatter all this about any more than it is ALREADY scattered within PM,

Read that as: Wheelie's 30 HP P-P rig would need to scale UP.

Muck it up, its all good. The more I read, the more I am leaning towards replacing with a big rotary.

Bye-the-way: Phase Technologies rates my model of PP at 60hp. I am not hip on the math, and how they get there.
66.4 KVA listed, 78.9 KVA max (I kinda understand that a little better)

"Some thought that "formal". But it wasn't, really."

The government formally licenced and regulated amature radio before the FCC existed.
RTFB,

As far as replacing a phase perfect unit with a large rotary converter, that would eliminate
the RFI issue, no doubt. Another approach would be graduated converters, larger ones
being started when larger loads were being run.

Originally Posted by wheelieking71

Muck it up, its all good. The more I read, the more I am leaning towards replacing with a big rotary.

Bye-the-way: Phase Technologies rates my model of PP at 60hp. I am not hip on the math, and how they get there.
66.4 KVA listed, 78.9 KVA max (I kinda understand that a little better)

Ouch. I thot you had only a 30 HP.

Well .. about that "math".

A 60-hoss RPC won't quite match it. The P-P has better reserve for "starting" loads, can run at 100% of its nameplate.

An RPC usually needs around a fifty-percent nominal surplus, minimum. SOME type of starting loads a GREAT deal more.

Mind - you may be fine if all your loads are a good deal LESS than 60 HP.

Even so, two or more lesser RPC, and/or/else drop on / drop-off "supplementary" idlers are wiser, because.

Not only are the idlers a significant starting load you'd be better-off to "stagger start", the greater the mis-match to their loads, the more energy they waste.

P-P and VFD waste "very little". DC Drive waste is much less. Damned-near zero.

Ideally, there are possible times a shop would want to be able to operate off one 30 HP RPC out of two, or a 20 HP or 40 HP - depending on what machine was to be put up to what work, any given portion of any given day.

Seems for your needs, however, (one key-player heavy-lifter CNC rig, is it?) the P-P IS the better deal. So long as it WORKS RIGHT.

My case, the RPC came AFTER I bought the first P-P.

Cheap as dirt downtime-preventer backup, relative to the P-P cost.

But that's dead-easy at a mere 10 HP, possible 5 HP, possible 7.5 HP, or BOTH as "supplementary idlers".

Lets me run my 1-1/2 to 2 3/4 HP loads off the 5 HP alone, a 5 HP load off the 7.5 alone, the 7 HP loads off the 10 HP alone, yet have 15, 17.5, even 22.5 max HP for heavy starting loads, fall-back once online. Spendy once. Cheaper on energy forever-after.

Larger is harder.

Originally Posted by thermite

Even so, two or more lesser RPC, and/or/else drop on / drop-off "supplementary" idlers are wiser.....

When I talked to Phoenix Converters earlier, he recommended two 40hp units.
He asked me what all I had. I gave him a WAG of 60 total HP. I basically broke it down like this:
Three haas's = 10hp ea
Brother = 7hp
Lathe = 20hp
Compressor = 3hp
I did not count the manual equipment as it rarely runs.
He then asked what I had to power it, which is a dedicated 400amp service straight out of the meter panel.
And I told him I would rather have more than I need, than not enough.
He said two 40's would maximize the 400amps, and I would have roughly 190amps of 240 3-ph available.

I know haas rates SS machines @ 30hp. But, I have seen the motor-plate. It clearly stated: 10hp (straight from Baldor).
Two of mine are Yaskawa now. But, I am sure they are still 10hp.

Regardless, 190amps goes a long way! Even if I end up with a new iron extravaganza?
I don't see me outgrowing 190amps in this building.

Is there a difference in electricity loss with different sizes of RPC's Or once the idler is spinning it does not make much difference to turn it, 5 hp or 40 hp?

Originally Posted by wheelieking71

When I talked to Phoenix Converters earlier, he recommended two 40hp units.
He asked me what all I had. I gave him a WAG of 60 total HP. I basically broke it down like this:
Three haas's = 10hp ea
Brother = 7hp
Lathe = 20hp
Compressor = 3hp
I did not count the manual equipment as it rarely runs.
He then asked what I had to power it, which is a dedicated 400amp service straight out of the meter panel.
And I told him I would rather have more than I need, than not enough.
He said two 40's would maximize the 400amps, and I would have roughly 190amps of 240 3-ph available.

I know haas rates SS machines @ 30hp. But, I have seen the motor-plate. It clearly stated: 10hp (straight from Baldor).
Two of mine are Yaskawa now. But, I am sure they are still 10hp.

Regardless, 190amps goes a long way! Even if I end up with a new iron extravaganza?
I don't see me outgrowing 190amps in this building.

Be interesting to reach out to OX and find out what he has to run all that iron. He had a surplus 100hp RPC my buddy was going to buy. He had a deal on a big power supply for anodizing. I don't remember all the details but I know we ended up returning it.

Originally Posted by wheelieking71

Regardless, 190amps goes a long way! Even if I end up with a new iron extravaganza?
I don't see me outgrowing 190amps in this building.

Well - "all manual", here, and its the starting loads as are "obvious", but the STABILITY reserve that isn't so obvious.

Take my diesel. NATO bought damned good regulation for 2007 when new. But while its nominal 10 KVA, known-good 15 KVA peak manages the START of a 7 HP load OK? Start-time ain't never "in the cut". IF, OTOH, I had to support even your 7 HP Brother? The servos, axis-drives & such could strain it to hold stable power.

Some say yah don't have the resilience of that massive utility grid, a Diesel needs as much as a ten to one reserve over nominal load to hold stability "unaided".

What I'm sayin' is you DO have reserve to assure stability, and it is not overkill.
Neither does what you listed appear to be hammering a 60 HP P-P beyond its nameplete, either.

Even so, it is wise to be able to shut-down the conversion reserve if you go RPC. When NOT in actual use, a P-P, VFD, or DC drive idles more efficiently than an RPC does.

Two 40's for RPC?

I might say three 20's could be better yet. Business does have its slow weeks, yah?

Originally Posted by thermite

Well - "all manual", here, and its the starting loads as are "obvious", but the STABILITY reserve that isn't so obvious.

Take my diesel. NATO bought damned good regulation for 2007 when new. But while its nominal 10 KVA, known-good 15 KVA peak manages the START of a 7 HP load OK? Start-time ain't never "in the cut". IF, OTOH, I had to support even your 7 HP Brother? The servos, axis-drives & such could strain it to hold stable power.

Some say yah don't have the resilience of that massive utility grid, a Diesel needs as much as a ten to one reserve over nominal load to hold stability "unaided".

What I'm sayin' is you DO have reserve to assure stability, and it is not overkill.
Neither does what you listed appear to be hammering a 60 HP P-P beyond its nameplete, either.

Even so, it is wise to be able to shut-down the conversion reserve if you go RPC. When NOT in actual use, a P-P, VFD, or DC drive idles more efficiently than an RPC does.

Two 40's for RPC?

I might say three 20's could be better yet. Business does have its slow weeks, yah?

Say you want to run 3 20hp RPCs, do you need to do anything play together nicely? How about if you had a 10hp and a 20hp? The whole setup, caps and all not just adding more idlers.

Originally Posted by moonlight machine

Say you want to run 3 20hp RPCs, do you need to do anything play together nicely? How about if you had a 10hp and a 20hp? The whole setup, caps and all not just adding more idlers.

For suitability to MY needs, I'm still a "supplementary" idler guy.

But apparently "not much" is needed, given the incoming 1-P line is your Hz-clock and master phase sync source.

Just recently looked-up store-bought 100 HP RPC's outta curiosity, another PM thread.

One major-maker did it with one idler. Another major-maker, their "standard" 100 HP offering was done with two 50 HP, both in their normal housings. Probably all as was needed was to connect the same terminals to the same feeders, both/all units.

Is their manual online? I didn't have a need of it.

Inverters CAN be trickier, but even so, it is a common need, so many of them are built capable of either parallel-ing-up to share a load, AND/OR being optioned for three by single-phase becoming a 3-Phase source.

Same again. RTFM.

Phase Technologies "mid/late" white-case, at least certain models of P-P, have a factory option for paralleling as well. Covered.

Which ones. How wired. "RTFM" yet-again.

It might by now even ship as standard, built-in?

"RTFM", most-recent.

Whole damn world doesn't always wait for the PM community to provide answers.

Some of the rudely impatient actually PUBLISH shit without waiting for PM to reveal all!

You'd have to know scabs?

Always tryin' to find a way to git AROUND a Union Brother's hard-earned seniority !!!

Originally Posted by thermite

For suitability to MY needs, I'm still a "supplementary" idler guy.

But apparently "not much" is needed, given the incoming 1-P line is your Hz-clock and master phase sync source.

Just recently looked-up store-bought 100 HP RPC's outta curiosity, another PM thread.

One major-maker did it with one idler. Another major-maker, their "standard" 100 HP offering was done with two 50 HP, both in their normal housings. Probably all as was needed was to connect the same terminals to the same feeders, both/all units.

Is their manual online? I didn't have a need of it.

Inverters CAN be trickier, but even so, it is a common need, so many of them are built capable of either parallel-ing-up to share a load, AND/OR being optioned for three by single-phase becoming a 3-Phase source.

Same again. RTFM.

Phase Technologies "mid/late" white-case, at least certain models of P-P, have a factory option for paralleling as well. Covered.

Which ones. How wired. "RTFM" yet-again.

It might by now even ship as standard, built-in?

"RTFM", most-recent.

Whole damn world doesn't always wait for the PM community to provide answers.

Some of the rudely impatient actually PUBLISH shit without waiting for PM to reveal all!

You'd have to know scabs?

Always tryin' to find a way to git AROUND a Union Brother's hard-earned seniority !!!

My supplementary idler is more machines running.

I saw on the American rotary website they got options now for joining a few RPC's together, its interesting.
Their outdoor unit looks decent too, keep the heat and noise out.

Anyone got more real info on true idle cost? cause the $ I'm seeing sure don't match the idle amp draw.

Originally Posted by SND

I saw on the American rotary website they got options now for joining a few RPC's together, its interesting.
Their outdoor unit looks decent too, keep the heat and noise out.

Anyone got more real info on true idle cost? cause the $ I'm seeing sure don't match the idle amp draw.

Don't forget that an idling motor is running at very low power factor. The lower the pf, the less the watts. Limit is at 0 pf no watts.

Tom