Possible to isolate Phase-Perfect generated noise from the mains? - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Don't forget that an idling motor is running at very low power factor. The lower the pf, the less the watts. Limit is at 0 pf no watts.

    Tom
    Folks keep SAYIN' that as if it were a "free milk cow" instead of "not all THAT bad" to keep and run.

    TANSTAAFL

    Electricity bill still shows it grazes some - even when it ain't eatin' BIG bales of hay.

    Cheaper to run than solid-state, they are never. Load-motor limited to about 91 % of data plate nominal is usually good enough.

    More durable, lower risk of harming or being harmed?

    That much yah can surely count on.

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    I haven't replied to the thread because I am not knowledgeable regarding the PP. But I do have a multi idler RPC consisting of three similar 7.5 hp motors and that is where the thread has seemed to have gone.

    Having a "smart meter" I just went and measured current drawn and power indicated for the system.

    1ea 7.5 hp idler running 2.9 amps; .649 kW; .086 kW per hp
    2ea 7.5 hp idler running 5.5 amps; 1.02 kW; .068 kW per hp
    3ea 7.5 hp idler running 7.8 amps; 1.66 kW; .065 kW per hp

    Seems non linear, don't know why.

    Extrapolating (not always accurate) for 3 20 hp idlers... =3.9 kW or for the an 8 hour day, about 31 kWh. So at a guessed $.12 per kwh in AZ for single phase power, about $3.72 per day, or less than one latee from Star Bucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Simmons View Post

    Extrapolating (not always accurate) for 3 20 hp idlers... =3.9 kW or for the an 8 hour day, about 31 kWh. So at a guessed $.12 per kwh in AZ for single phase power, about $3.72 per day, or less than one latee from Star Bucks.
    The peace of mind knowing their not going to burn the house down: Priceless

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Simmons View Post
    I haven't replied to the thread because I am not knowledgeable regarding the PP. But I do have a multi idler RPC consisting of three similar 7.5 hp motors and that is where the thread has seemed to have gone.

    Having a "smart meter" I just went and measured current drawn and power indicated for the system.

    1ea 7.5 hp idler running 2.9 amps; .649 kW; .086 kW per hp
    2ea 7.5 hp idler running 5.5 amps; 1.02 kW; .068 kW per hp
    3ea 7.5 hp idler running 7.8 amps; 1.66 kW; .065 kW per hp

    Seems non linear, don't know why.

    Extrapolating (not always accurate) for 3 20 hp idlers... =3.9 kW or for the an 8 hour day, about 31 kWh. So at a guessed $.12 per kwh in AZ for single phase power, about $3.72 per day, or less than one latee from Star Bucks.
    In red ^^^^^ neither do I. I am not that smart. But, the Phoenix Converters gentleman told me it wouldn't be linear.
    I didn't ask (again, not that smart). He just volunteered that info. Almost as if saying "don't be surprised when....." So, I assume that is normal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Folks keep SAYIN' that as if it were a "free milk cow" instead of "not all THAT bad" to keep and run.

    TANSTAAFL

    Electricity bill still shows it grazes some - even when it ain't eatin' BIG bales of hay.

    Cheaper to run than solid-state, they are never. Load-motor limited to about 91 % of data plate nominal is usually good enough.

    More durable, lower risk of harming or being harmed?

    That much yah can surely count on.
    As triumph stated: cheap insurance!

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    I think I'll order a couple volt meters(maybe analog eh?) of some sort to hard wire in my PP's 1ph side so I can take a look at the reading every day when turning on/off just as extra precaution. Might be an easy cheap enough way to catch when the cap's or anything start to go.

    Anyway, I hope to take a day and wire in that line reactor over the holidays.
    I know playing around with a few caps across the lines and also other emi filters did eff all so far.
    I think once I figure out how to properly set the triggers on my oscilloscope it might be able to pick up some of it, hopefully anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    As triumph stated: cheap insurance!
    Not kidding. At least until the goods now inbound arrive, my own P-P is doing more duty as a place to aside the odd bit of crap atop it than it is transferring power.

    I had bought TWO big Square-D 600 V-class used-"transfer" switches, only need one for the Diesel. Lucked-out as both were in as-new shape inside where it mattered.

    So the other lets me power the 3-P panel from either of P-P or RPC.

    Belt, braces, and comfortable even if naked?

    Life's too DAMNED short to borrow other people's troubles!

    Got fish of my own as still need electrocuted before we git any more snow.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Don't forget that an idling motor is running at very low power factor. The lower the pf, the less the watts. Limit is at 0 pf no watts.
    Tom
    There is some windage and bearing losses. In my case an unloaded 5 hp converter draws about 200 watts of real power. Folks with amp-clamp
    meters as their sole current measurement device tend to freak out a bit when they test things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    I think I'll order a couple volt meters(maybe analog eh?) of some sort to hard wire in my PP's 1ph side so I can take a look at the reading every day when turning on/off just as extra precaution. Might be an easy cheap enough way to catch when the cap's or anything start to go.

    Anyway, I hope to take a day and wire in that line reactor over the holidays.
    I know playing around with a few caps across the lines and also other emi filters did eff all so far.
    I think once I figure out how to properly set the triggers on my oscilloscope it might be able to pick up some of it, hopefully anyway.
    This is what the neighbor (highly qualified to play with this schtuff) saw when my input filter caps took a shit:

    26078.jpg

    The voltage on the mains was still 240. The PP was just pumping high freq noise back on the mains.
    Anything with ferrite, and certain types of silicon cased devices, do not like this noise. And, they let you know with HEAT!
    This is why the power-co dude told me to replace all my breakers.

    Just attacked my junk with the DMM. 240/241 in. 240/241/243 out. Then shut it off so I can sleep well tonight

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    I think I'll order a couple volt meters(maybe analog eh?) of some sort to hard wire in my PP's 1ph side so I can take a look at the reading every day when turning on/off just as extra precaution. Might be an easy cheap enough way to catch when the cap's or anything start to go.

    Anyway, I hope to take a day and wire in that line reactor over the holidays.
    I know playing around with a few caps across the lines and also other emi filters did eff all so far.
    I think once I figure out how to properly set the triggers on my oscilloscope it might be able to pick up some of it, hopefully anyway.
    Typical meter, A or D, will buffer that noise right out of sight.

    Watcha need - even as OLD as a Fluke 77 - is a DVM with numbers AND a bar-graph that measures transients, too.

    Lot of newer gear even has a tiny colour screen so yah get both meter-with-numbers and a "sort-of" o'scope in one hand, small and handy.

    OTOH, a very capable Rigol 4-trace with all sorts of computerish goodies built-in is so cheap I spent a high multiple of the 'scope's cost just on 4 sets of seriously trustworthy US-made HV-capable test leads.

    Most of the cheapseats are only rated for 300 V, actually WILL break down around twice that if the meter's guts haven't already shit the bed.

    I'm serious.

    Looks STRONGLY as if all we need is a VERY "loosely coupled" salvaged/re-purposed/borrowed AUDIO PASS BAND graphic display. Common as dirt, audiophile field and apps in "hand helds" - or on laptops.

    NO NEED to "couple" in any risky-way atall. No NEED to learn the ways of o'scopes.

    The bugger ain't hiding its truancy. "Broadcasting" it, rather.

    And "literally so". That's WHY it has become a problem, after all.

    Back in the dawn of "computers" when a 600 KHz "bus clock" was considered bleeding edge, the late Dr. Jack Frisbie - my next-higher for a spell - kept a cigarette-pack sized cheaper than s**t AM transistor radio next to his personal R&D GA-SPC12 'puter.

    So long as the bugger was making random noise? The 'puter was chunking away.

    No sooner went repetitious? She had finished the program, ELSE had hung in an endless loop. Only THEN did he break-off from whatever else he was up to and go have a look.

    THERE's yer "canary in the coal mine". Ignorant cheap-ass mass-market audio gear of most any type at all. Put 'er "near" but safely NOT "in contact"?

    Count on harmonics and hetrodynes to enable yah to listen to the "fat lady" sing.

    Next mission? Learn the sound of such song as is "normal".. and which others are NOT!

    Trust this much. BOTH will be boooring...

    So I'm keepin' Willle Nelson for tears and nostalgia.. Dana Winter for joy.. and Acker Bilk for just plain nicer days than otherwise!

    May be DEEF, but the old Marantz DC-coupled amp can prolly down light aircraft. Or at least truant drones?


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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    This is what the neighbor (highly qualified to play with this schtuff) saw when my input filter caps took a shit:...
    A lot of modern scopes can spit out a jpg which makes for a very readable picture. Example, my rotary converter output via the usb port on an
    HP scope; (I think the purple was utility phase)


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    Ooh ....Kayyy ....last of the core "test rig" parts should all be here by day's end.

    Here's the plan and a call for suggested tests;

    - At-core, a 10 HP P-P, bought new, still functioning "as new", no significant problematic hash.

    - To be fed through one 40A .5+ mH 400+ VAC rated single-coil choke, each leg, off the 246 VAC service to input of:

    - The P-P or a simulator. More on the "simulator", later.

    - One each three-coil 3-P TCI "SineGard" line reactor, to:

    - One each 3-Phase 27 KVA EGS/Hevi-Duty Delta-Wye 1:1 "drive isolation" transformer. itself a fair-decent hash filter, FWIW.

    - my available 3-P motor loads: ~ 2 HP, 5 HP and 7 HP. I can re-purpose a 10 HP RPC idler as well. NO easy way to LOAD DOWN any of these, so that won't tell me a great deal,

    BUT.. Wheelies' problem seems to be about as bad with his P-P idling as working?

    "To Be Confirmed", please, Wheelie, if yer even still in the pub?.

    - 4-Channel Rigol digital 'scope has capture, record, and comms capability.
    If ever I get a round tuit and RTM anyway.

    The attenuation these goods provide is published. No shortage of info, nor folks who can "do the math" or have already done the math, and ages ago.

    Not expecting to "discover" anything, re-invent old wheels, nor invent a damned thing new, here. Simply apply goods reasonably common in the market that other folk could also find, and tell yah what I see. To be fair, I expect to make them a permanent part of MY rig anyway, so I ain't really playing Fairy Godmother altruistic, here atall.

    Simulator is not so clear:

    Since my P-P is NOT being naughty and ..with over four large invested in it off a modest budget, I have less than zero plan to make it act-up!

    See if this flies instead:

    I can attach the essentially bullet-proof, also CHEAP if damaged, 10 HP-idlered RPC where the P-P would sit.

    I can parallel it's 1-P input with a 230 VAC in, 180 VDC out KB-Penta DC drive with a DC motor as light load.

    That becomes a source injecting "the usual" rude-bugger SCR Commutation line-side hash as is characteristic of SCR-class DC Drives, regardless.

    Base CPS, however, is fixed. Two-pulse = 120 Hz.

    No COST for that, but a bit of f-with time, as all the goods are here and paid-for.

    I think we need a better test to simulate an incipient-problematic P-P.

    Square-wave or sawtooth oscillator swept through the audio passband, suspected gremlins about "mid range", AKA below 6 KHz a likely suspect.

    The inductors selected SHOULD block that, simply off the back of being much "lower" pass, low-pass filters.

    Oscillator ain't hard. I'm just grown too old and lazy to feel like building one for a one-time use that I can safely couple so as to inject the output into a live power line.

    So... ideas... adaptations ...

    What else might serve well-enough- to pretend to be a crippled P-P?

    I have been known to drag a wire down an ignorant FILE at various rates of Knots to generate a spike off each tooth hit, but still.

    Even a redneck has to let the skin heal now and then...


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    BUT.. Wheelies' problem seems to be about as bad with his P-P idling as working?

    "To Be Confirmed", please, Wheelie, if yer even still in the pub?.
    Correct. The most obvious flag currently is:
    As soon as the P-P kicks on, anything that could/would/does generate an audible 60hz hum, gets exceptionally louder.
    The high-bay lights are what I notice every morning. Kill the P-P? And, it immediately goes silent(er).

    I could live with this easy enough. What I can't deal with is the dark cloud looming on the horizon.
    What if "it" happens again?

    What pisses me off: I was still under warranty when "it" happened. Phase Technologies told me everything I wanted to hear.
    Including, "we are working on protection that will shut the unit down during events like this. It will be field installable.
    As soon as we finish we will update your unit!" What happened? As soon as I went out of warranty, Radio-Silence!
    To the point that I sent several emails that were actually ignored over a span of about 9 months.

    I wish the potential for disaster did not exist! Trust me. Unfortunately, I have experienced the truth, that, it does.

    Speaking of the high-bay lights, holy crap, I threw a clamp on that line in the panel yesterday. 19.9amps!
    They are on their own circuit, on a 20amp breaker. I see some LED retrofits in my near future!

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    So, when the whole caps failure and meltdown thing happened, do you know if any of your neighbors also experienced any damage related to it, or it pretty much all stayed within your loop?

    I wonder if the pole transformers get rid of enough of it. I'm alone on mine here, shop and house tied on it at the pole(Shop is clamped onto the house wires). So I'm mainly hoping the buzz and risk if a caps failure did happen, isn't making it down the street, but it would have to go through my pole transformer, then back through another step down further down the street where those all have 5-10houses per transformer. So, maybe that at least isolates some of it.

    I never noticed anything buzzing here other than the cooktop breaker and microwave, old microwave was worse but new one very little. They definitely sounds weird if I use them while the PP's are running though. It sounds higher than 60hz to me, the cooktop breaker has a similar frying bacon sound at the white PP(blue PP doesn't seem to bother it, different hz I guess)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Correct. The most obvious flag currently is:
    As soon as the P-P kicks on, anything that could/would/does generate an audible 60hz hum, gets exceptionally louder.
    The high-bay lights are what I notice every morning. Kill the P-P? And, it immediately goes silent(er).
    Thanks, but...

    Fair-certain it is NOT "60 Hz hum" that is popping up. We are SURROUNDED by 60 Hz and it doesn't radiate that obviously for far off the wire, loaded and working or not.

    What I suspect is 60 Hz or a low-order-harmonic of it BUT now riding a higher frequency carrier - much as AM radio's Audio does. We don't always have to filter it out to be able to listen to the Audio. Our ears cannot detect the carrier, even if not removed. We can "become" the detector and filter.

    It is that carrier that spans the distance such that the energy we CAN detect shows up in places where it was not meant to reach.

    Thus my hope for an audio spectrum graphic even if no o'scope trace.

    One of my long ago mentors held the patent on a device wherein his hearing-aids switched from microphone to "telecoil". Turn the phones of the day upside down, earpiece over the big old body hearing-aid, listen to the far-end speaker magnetically. No distracting room noise. No annoying "feedback" squeal.

    Schools for the deaf, each classroom had a loop for the whole room. Audio from the instructor's MIC or a video presentation modulated 100 KHz carrier via a modified PA amplifier. Kids all got "the word" through their telecoils. Next classroom, different show.

    Now.. we had to deliberately pump a good deal of power into that system. It didn't travel far outside each separate loop. It still relied on each hearing aid, how it was configured as to response curve, and at what level of gain for the BOOST.

    Your P-P is reaching awfully far by ACCIDENT and we are not yet sure that all the energy is even staying on the WIRE. You may have a "wish-I-was-a-wadio"
    transmitter!

    We need something similar to plug into your laptop's "MIC" port to see where the P-P-gremlin's energy is centered.

    There's an old saw amongst the early pioneers of Electronics designers along the lines of:
    It you want an Amplifier, set out to build an Oscillator. It won't oscillate. it will only amplify.

    If you want an Oscillator, set out to build an Amplifier. It won't amplify. It will only oscillate.
    P-P may have fallen victim to that age-old trap.

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    I sometimes look at this guys website to see what is going on in that world. It reminded me that wheelies PP must be the mother of all "dirty electricity" producers in a household. This article talks about what can be done to remedy that with filters etc.. If nothing else it describes what it is in simple terms for people to understand it. Lots of info on that site.
    Dirty Electricity

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    is there a possibility these units are drawing asymmetrical load from the mains, a net dc current of even a few amps?

    what clues me into this is the 60hz hum getting louder. it should stay the same but the higher harmonics may be audible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    So, when the whole caps failure and meltdown thing happened, do you know if any of your neighbors also experienced any damage related to it, or it pretty much all stayed within your loop?

    I wonder if the pole transformers get rid of enough of it. I'm alone on mine here.........
    I do not know. The neighbor would have certainly noticed. He has a ton of sensitive equipment burning away over there at all times.
    He did not see anything. (he builds powerful RF generators, and RF match networks for the semiconductor, plasma deposition industries).
    And, I to am the only draw on my transformer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I do not know. The neighbor would have certainly noticed. He has a ton of sensitive equipment burning away over there at all times.
    He did not see anything. (he builds powerful RF generators, and RF match networks for the semiconductor, plasma deposition industries).
    And, I to am the only draw on my transformer.
    He would be, then, one of the most suitable detectives as could be found.

    With YOUR unit, already KNOWN to be exhibiting the abberrent behaviour, his suspicions - and those of some among us - he'd probably find a failure mode wherein something IS acting as a HF, VHF, even SHF Carrier Oscillator, and all your "ear" is detecting is the hetrodyne frequencies.

    The appliances are not as fortunate. Their components are integrating a lot more of the energy under whatever "curve" has spanned the distance.

    As said, maybe not even OVER the wire. Typical house wiring is a right "lossy" stripline, but even so? It has served me as all the "FM Radio" antenna I ever needed, metropolitan areas saturated as they can be with 30-odd stations detectable, most of them decently so. Back when I could still HEAR. Or "mostly so", anyway.

    THEIR local attach leads could be functioning as antennas to radiated energy.

    Two examples:

    Mid-1950's, new home, tight budget, Dad had used a "side arm" water-heater as was but an UN-insulated steel tank with a coil of copper tubing on one side of it, tapped out low and back-in higher up for convection flow. A sort of cylindrical cast-iron housing that opened like a clamshell enclosed that coil. The transition was from a Bell-bottomed base as held a natural-gas ring-burner, flames run up through the coil to the exhaust flue out the top.

    As kids of a rainy, boring day, we'd visit the water heater, open the cover, turn a tap over in the laundry 'til it dropped temp and fired-up the burner.

    Then listen to a faint jumble of what seemed to be the local AM radio stations all of them talking at once, as if the fool thing was possessed by the Devil.

    Easily 20 years went by before an article on super-powerful speakers for 'nam war propaganda broadcasts pointed out than among the highest gain and loudest speakers for their size mankind has ever figured out how to build... were those that modulated a plasma.

    Candle flame for the article's demo.

    Turbo-jet engine exhaust if you were serious-rude about getting a message out.

    Cheap gas water heater was merely a bystander, "ignorance" the only devil.


    Page Two:

    Elderly deaf lady in suburban Pittsburgh. Dealer could NOT convince her the Radioear 850 "body" instrument did NOT pick up "Clear Channel" 50 thousand Watt KDKA Pittsburgh, 1020 AM radio.

    Instrument had been in to the lab, had a filter added already. Dealer prevailed on the firm to send the National Service Manager out in person. I arrived at the address, stepped out of the car, took one look at what the HELL was that massive baby Eiffel-tower like set of legs a few dozen yards away..

    Yup. One tower of a HV transmission line. And not far way, the antenna farm KDKA used to fill that "clear channel" night-time slot.

    There was so much energy there, the CORD to her earpiece could pick up the audio.

    Well... it was beyond our means to build a massive Faraday Cage or our Warranty to move her residence.

    Electronics was a younger industry then, so we hadn't got to negotiating with tricky-dickey-Nixon nor the Yew-Ass Congress to sell us the authority to shoot annoying customers who complained, nor even lawster, 'em into post bankruptcy ending of days living under a bridge.

    Wasn't our way, anyhow, even if Clinton had already come in and published a standard price for the right to screw-over customers.

    All we could do was suggest to the Dealer he advise her and her family it might be a good idea, hearing aids or no, to move-house!

    As was to come to pass.

    Nice letter came from some place in Florida to the effect that thank God and Radioear she was finally free of KDKA, Pittsburgh, could listen to some other station or even watch Tee Vee with sound that actually matched the show on the screen!

    Some strange s**t happens now and again, them pesky naked apes git to messing with Old Lady Nachur.


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    "not far way, the antenna farm KDKA used...."

    Yeah. I can play WLNA at loudspeaker volume on a crystal set. Not 50KW but it's real nearby.
    This is the acid test for vintage radios, can it reject that.

    Granted the loudspeaker is a Western Electric horn speaker.


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