Possible to isolate Phase-Perfect generated noise from the mains? - Page 6
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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    This is what the neighbor (highly qualified to play with this schtuff) saw when my input filter caps took a shit:

    Attachment 272265

    The voltage on the mains was still 240. The PP was just pumping high freq noise back on the mains.
    Anything with ferrite, and certain types of silicon cased devices, do not like this noise. And, they let you know with HEAT!
    This is why the power-co dude told me to replace all my breakers.

    Just attacked my junk with the DMM. 240/241 in. 240/241/243 out. Then shut it off so I can sleep well tonight

    The scale for the yellow trace is 200 mV/division. I assume that there must be an uncorrected scale factor due to whatever pickup was in use*, because the total amount of noise based on the actual scale of the scope trace is more than desirable from an EMI type standpoint, but may not be much from an equipment damage standpoint. Not sure what the time scale is, though..... the actual frequency can make a difference.

    * Many scopes can put in a scale factor to correct for such things as a 1:1 vs a 10:1 or 100:1 probe, That makes he reading scale in "real" units, so if the 100:1 probe shows one division on a 1 volt/division scale, the scope will show it as 100V.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    ..... the actual frequency can make a difference.
    Nominated for "understement of the entire thread."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Nominated for "understement of the entire thread."

    Maybe... depends what the real amplitude was... If actually 0.4V peak, not likely to be more than obnixiously noisy with EMI, not too damaging in most cases (there are exceptions, and some capacitive dropping systems are prime among those.)

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    .4 volt peak would correspond to .01 ohms resistance of the filter cap for a 40amp current.

    40 volts is more believable corresponding to a 100:1 probe and complete lack of input cap

  6. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Maybe... depends what the real amplitude was... If actually 0.4V peak, not likely to be more than obnixiously noisy with EMI, not too damaging in most cases (there are exceptions, and some capacitive dropping systems are prime among those.)
    Well.. audio gear has been mentioned. Even my ancient 1968 Lafayette Radio LT-425T FM receiver was up for considering about 1 1/2 microVolt levels hitting its optional capacitive coupling to its own power-cord instead of a formal antenna good enough to grab lock, clean-up, and feed an amplifier.

    Have to say, it is sore frustrating to NOT have the cotton-picking spectrum of record and in our sight.

    The gear I've bought isn't really a shot in the dark. It all makes BASIC sense in any case for my own use - protecting digitally communicative tribes of goods more than analog audio.

    So it's PBS (Pure Bullshit Luck) if it sheds any light at all on Wheelie's own P-P issue. Whatever TF it is ... it wasn't MEANT to be happening.

    Best I am going to be able to capture is what a P-P looks like when it is NOT acting up. Some value in that as a baseline. But not a lot.

    Otherwise? Only traces we'e seen were when the caps had shit the bed. But they've been replaced. And there is STILL a problem. Of another kind. Or so we GUESS it "probably" ... "might" ...be.

    Well.... I've BEEN to Gilbert, AZ. Nice enough place. But not so bored with what I got on my own plate to just fly out there and take the readings.

    Gots to be SOME way to sort that out locally. 'Scope in "roll" mode or even snapshot memory, post or email the foto or its data file, and THEN we can apply what we collectively know.

    "Page Two" ain't to re-engineer the P-P. Buggers weren't priced nor sold as no Radio-Shack kit.

    It's to dump that evidence onto Phase Technology's plate with a request:

    "WHEN may your collective customer base have a properly R&D tested "school solution", please?"

    Had their corporate head out in the fresh air and sunshine, we'd already HAVE that, much the same as recalls on our motor vehicles or risky romaine lettuce codes to be returned for credit, yah?

  7. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by johansen View Post
    .4 volt peak would correspond to .01 ohms resistance of the filter cap for a 40amp current.

    40 volts is more believable corresponding to a 100:1 probe and complete lack of input cap

    Could be. The mains have a certain impedance, and the input PFC, if there is one, has an inductor in series (it is basically a boost circuit, with a modified control law). Your 40 volts is pretty much in the range of credible stuff, and it would play hell with a lot of common power line "stuff", even if it does not actually kill most of it.

    If this unit has NO PFC, then it's a case of "the Lord knows, we don't".... It could be anywhere, up to essentially full line voltage pulses.

    I have very little info on what is really inside a practical PP, certainly no knowledge of the specific models. The patent shows only the important stuff, not what has to be with it to let it exist on a real power line. I know what SHOULD be there, from doing PFCs in the past, but exactly how they do it is important to understanding this particular problem.

    Yes, PP themselves should be VERY interested in this case, assuming they have not already diagnosed it and suggested a solution.

  8. #107
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    Any progress on your end with the power situation or switching to RPC?

    I still haven't put in the line reactor, I gotta try to do that later this week or next.
    They put a smart meter on the shop today, its not online for another year but I wonder a bit if the PP's feedback will interfere with whatever electronics are in that new meter thing. Apparently these new smart meters monitor lots of things, can turn power on/off, know if lights are flickering, or outages, etc, so it'll probably know there's machines running in here pretty quick.

  9. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Any progress on your end with the power situation or switching to RPC?

    I still haven't put in the line reactor, I gotta try to do that later this week or next.
    They put a smart meter on the shop today, its not online for another year but I wonder a bit if the PP's feedback will interfere with whatever electronics are in that new meter thing. Apparently these new smart meters monitor lots of things, can turn power on/off, know if lights are flickering, or outages, etc, so it'll probably know there's machines running in here pretty quick.
    More than one pair of hands at work here, but in my case the alleged-Attorney for an hostile heir just had another brief episode of getting her truant head out into fresh air and sunshine, so I'm up to my ass in nutcases for a while.

    Again. As they drag a simple Probate into its fifth year.

    Just had to point out to the arrogant fool that it is simply above my pay grade to grant dispensation from Code of Virginia to her client.

    Court can't do that, either.

    She has to see the Governor for a "pardon", and I don't see HIM doing that in advance of violation of the law.

    I don't HAVE to be an Attorney to do an Executor's job.

    All I have to be is a medium-grade GS-5 or comparable CLERK who DOES read what is meant to be read and implemented.

    Why is that so damned HARD for the supposedly educated, supposedly "professionals"? Sloth. Arrogance. Status. Ass-umption.

    Code of Virginia on Probate ain't hard, 400-plus years of refinement under it, same again, another 400 years further back in Mother England.

    Exactly TWO US States use the long-serving English form. Virginia, and by inheritance, WEST (by God) Virginia.

    Any tenth-grade "B" student can understand it as it reads NOW.

    It IS easier if yah open yer EYES and actually READ it of course.

    Must admit I am a notorious cheat on that score. 20+ years as CEO/MD/Chairman and all the stuff it took in prior years to GET that sort of job ....and keep it?

    I even understand what I read.

    Hold yer fire PM'ers!

    Hold yer fire....


    I did NOT claim to understand what I WRITE!


  10. #109
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    "I don't HAVE to be an Attorney to do an Executor's job."

    You're not a lawyer but you play one on the internet?

    Alternative response: TMI


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