So i have an ATV312HU15M2. It's a 220v single phase in, 220v 3 phase out. When i hooked up my power supply and tried to increase voltage to 60vac, it stayed at 19vac until the unit powered up and my meter showed 320vac. I shut it off right away and tested the power supply on a fan. 0-240v smooth. Hooked it back up to the vfd and tried again. Same result. Goes from 19vac to 320vac as soon as the unit powers up. Any ideas what could be happening?
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Problem Reforming Schneider VFD
- Thread starter t120r
- Start date
- Replies 12
- Views 3,056
kd1yt
Cast Iron
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2013
- Location
- Vermont, USA
Could it have an active rectifier on the input side from the AC line to the capacitor bank?
Active rectification - Wikipedia
If so, that might depend on some of the "smarts" in the VFD waking up to run the active rectifier- and the smarts may not wake up until the voltage reaches a certain level?
Active rectification - Wikipedia
If so, that might depend on some of the "smarts" in the VFD waking up to run the active rectifier- and the smarts may not wake up until the voltage reaches a certain level?
johansen
Stainless
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2014
- Location
- silverdale wa
it is not an active rectifier:
"output voltage <= power supply voltage"
"When i hooked up my power supply and tried to increase voltage to 60vac, it stayed at 19vac until the unit powered up and my meter showed 320vac. I shut it off right away and tested the power supply on a fan. 0-240v smooth. Hooked it back up to the vfd and tried again. Same result. Goes from 19vac to 320vac as soon as the unit powers up. Any ideas what could be happening? "
what kind of power supply are you using and how was it able to deliver 320vac? i hope you aren't using a vfd as a variable voltage device.. they are only variable voltage supplies if you have an LC filter on the output.
320vac applied to the vfd will rectify to 450 volts: it does not surprise me that the vfd survived operation at that voltage but any higher and you risk blowing it up.
"output voltage <= power supply voltage"
"When i hooked up my power supply and tried to increase voltage to 60vac, it stayed at 19vac until the unit powered up and my meter showed 320vac. I shut it off right away and tested the power supply on a fan. 0-240v smooth. Hooked it back up to the vfd and tried again. Same result. Goes from 19vac to 320vac as soon as the unit powers up. Any ideas what could be happening? "
what kind of power supply are you using and how was it able to deliver 320vac? i hope you aren't using a vfd as a variable voltage device.. they are only variable voltage supplies if you have an LC filter on the output.
320vac applied to the vfd will rectify to 450 volts: it does not surprise me that the vfd survived operation at that voltage but any higher and you risk blowing it up.
DaveKamp
Titanium
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2004
- Location
- LeClaire, Ia
Where were you measuring this voltage? At the capacitor (DC Link), or at the input?
I'm inclined to think that you're measuring DC link at the capacitor bank (320*1.414=325v), and that the VFD has 'brownout' protection (active rectification, does not flow until it sees line voltage high enough to operate)...
If that's the case, reforming the caps probably won't be easy to do...
Just power it up with line, but don't run the inverter for a while... let it just sit with a charge for an hour, then spin it up.
thermite
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2011
..also discontinued/obsolete.
Just hook it up and run it. If it shits its messkit, just go and get a Schneider Altivar ATV320U15M2C for the current item.
These are cheap units as far as Schneider's overall line or industrial VFD in general.
"Kleenex", IOW. Good while good, not worth a lot of expensive wall-clock time when they are no longer.
I measured it from the AC input terminals. I probably will try just powering it up with line voltage and let it sit for a while. Worst case it blows up
Just to add some clarity. While measuring from the AC input with my Fluke, the power supply shows 19vac with the reheostat at the 0vac mark. I can turn the rheostat until it hits almost the 100vac (Can go to 240vac) mark and it stays steady at 19vac, then jumps to 320vac. Testing on another VFD and a fan shows that it works correctly on them, just not on this VFD. It is odd as I didn't think it could 'make' voltage. But most of this is beyond my skillset.
I think I'll just plug it in and let it sit for a few hours... See what happens.
I think I'll just plug it in and let it sit for a few hours... See what happens.
thermite
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2011
I measured it from the AC input terminals. I probably will try just powering it up with line voltage and let it sit for a while. Worst case it blows up
It's a Schneider, not a Huanyang. It will probably JFW, so yes.
Your TIME is worth something, too?
Jraef
Titanium
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2004
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
Is the “power supply” a cheap voltage controller used for heating? That’s what I suspect, and it is of the “zero cross variable time base” variety. That can only work on purely resistive loads because it is always putting out full voltage, but is simply varying the number of on and off pulses to deliver an AVERAGE voltage to a resistor. Each pulse however is seen by the capacitors as the full RMS and stored, hence the full voltage measurement and the line terminals of the drive.
If you used this in the past to reform drives, you got lucky because this type of power supply is a capacitor killer, but only IF your caps have already de-formed. If they were OK to start with, they won’t be harmed.
If you are going to use an electronic AC power supply (as opposed to a manual variac), it must be the type called a “Phase Angle controller”.
I’ve also stopped doing this through the AC input terminals because in a couple of cases slowly raising the AC input caused the brains to get scrambled. I’ve taken to removing the terminals of the caps and connecting variable DC directly to them.
If you used this in the past to reform drives, you got lucky because this type of power supply is a capacitor killer, but only IF your caps have already de-formed. If they were OK to start with, they won’t be harmed.
If you are going to use an electronic AC power supply (as opposed to a manual variac), it must be the type called a “Phase Angle controller”.
I’ve also stopped doing this through the AC input terminals because in a couple of cases slowly raising the AC input caused the brains to get scrambled. I’ve taken to removing the terminals of the caps and connecting variable DC directly to them.
There is another possible issue....
Flike used to be very good and reliable. But now there are some cheaper models made in the far east, which are nowhere near as nice as a regular traditional Fluke. Most Flukes are pretty good at rejecting noise, such as a VFD makes. But some are not, notably the newer cheaper ones.
You COULD be seeing the results when the power supply in the VFD turns on, which can put some significant noise on the input. The Fluke meters that do not handle that well can read very odd voltages, usually well above the real voltage. The sudden jump in voltage can be due to the internal power supply suddenly turning on, and energizing the VFD circuitry (but usually not turning on the output). It often turns on at somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3 of the nominal operating voltage.
And, not all Fluke meters even of good older types will read correctly in the presence of pulse type noise, which a VFD and its power supply will produce.
I would totally forget using anything except a variac type input supply, or an isolated type electronic power supply. No sort of "light dimmer" can be "known" to be suitable.
I have had good results using an adjustable DC supply connected to either the input terminals, or to the bus terminals if they are available. The problematic Fluke meters are usually more reliable in cases of noise when set to a DC range.
Flike used to be very good and reliable. But now there are some cheaper models made in the far east, which are nowhere near as nice as a regular traditional Fluke. Most Flukes are pretty good at rejecting noise, such as a VFD makes. But some are not, notably the newer cheaper ones.
You COULD be seeing the results when the power supply in the VFD turns on, which can put some significant noise on the input. The Fluke meters that do not handle that well can read very odd voltages, usually well above the real voltage. The sudden jump in voltage can be due to the internal power supply suddenly turning on, and energizing the VFD circuitry (but usually not turning on the output). It often turns on at somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3 of the nominal operating voltage.
And, not all Fluke meters even of good older types will read correctly in the presence of pulse type noise, which a VFD and its power supply will produce.
I would totally forget using anything except a variac type input supply, or an isolated type electronic power supply. No sort of "light dimmer" can be "known" to be suitable.
I have had good results using an adjustable DC supply connected to either the input terminals, or to the bus terminals if they are available. The problematic Fluke meters are usually more reliable in cases of noise when set to a DC range.
thermite
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2011
I've not only "stopped doing this" despite having 3 Variacs to hand, I've sent-off all the VFD's.
If it is true that "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."
then I submit that:
"Any technology sufficiently aggravating is indistinguishable from a pain in the ass."
No longer!
You're right, it is one of those heating/fan/lightbulb power supplies. I guess I'm just lucky I didn't blow anything yet. I like your idea of doing the caps individually. What range DC supply would I need to do that?
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