What's new
What's new

Rotary Phase Converter - How to CNC voltage it?

Erasma

Plastic
Joined
Apr 16, 2019
Hi There,

I have a standard 20HP rotary phase convert and was wondering how one could CNC voltage it? "Balanced Voltage"

I don't know how else to better describe it? I am aware that the rotary phase converter is designed with a set load in mind and with large load fluctuations the voltage can be all over the place. what is the best way to deal with this? how to the CNC rotary phase converters differ from the standard type?

Thanks
 
I purchase a multi-tap transformer, basically designed to bring various different voltages to within the the voltages required. I simply use the tap that will bring the "created leg" to equal the other two legs. I have use this on an old Bridgeport CNC mill that worked fine on the transformed RPC supply.
 
I purchase a multi-tap transformer, basically designed to bring various different voltages to within the the voltages required. I simply use the tap that will bring the "created leg" to equal the other two legs. I have use this on an old Bridgeport CNC mill that worked fine on the transformed RPC supply.

Thanks for this - which multi-tap transformer did you purchase? and how did you wire this up? did you run the 3 phase into the tap then into the CNC? when the voltage changes under load does the tap not also change? my understanding is very limited to dangerous.

Thanks
 
If you are trying to fine tune the output of the RPC, be aware that the phase angles probably are not 120 degrees. The other issue is that the voltage is unimportant, its the current. Voltage is just the push to get things going. Its the current that does the work.

The only way I know of the get truly balanced output is either use an inverter or motor-generator.

Tom
 
I have a good .pdf that explains how to balance voltages for a three phase RPC. Tried to upload, but the file is too large. Send me your email and I will get it to you.

Basically you are adding run capacitors to balance things. I have done this with good results for all my CNC machines.


Even after balance, be SURE the weak leg does not go to the control computer. It is normally L3, but not always. On virtually all controls, two legs go to a transformer to get control power.
 
Thanks All,

So to understand this better the best once can get is to balance the legs for a load and not be able to have a continued balanced load at different loads? How do they get sinewave from a RPC or is that Impossible?
 
FWIW, the above link to another post is the exact document I would have sent. Fitch is the expert here.

A voltmeter between legs is all you need.

My experience has shown that a larger Hp RPC will give a more constant reading over a large range of loads.

I built a real nice RPC for my son's shop. Included voltmeters on the panel and spade terminals to the run caps. Over a bit of time, he had it perfect at mid range load.
 
If you understand how the RPC works, you will understand why the capacitor method is unstable, and why using a transformer is in some ways better. It is not ideal, the ideal way is a change in the idler design. Also, the phase angles will be very close to perfectly at 120 deg, unless mucked with using capacitors.

1) A three phase motor (or single phase, etc) produces a "back EMF", a voltage that opposes the applied voltage. That is an essential part of how it works. That voltage is what cuts the starting "inrush" current down to the load current required by the shaft power output needed. Each phase of that has to exactly oppose the incoming voltage, so yes, it WILL be closely at 120 degrees, and improves with load..

2) The back EMF is ALWAYS less than the effective line voltage, because the difference between them is what drives current into the motor. The difference will vary with load, but it exists.

3) The "generated leg" is actually the back EMF if the 3rd phase wire. Remembering that it MUST BE less than the effective mains (line) voltage, you can easily see that it will need to be boosted. The idler motor can be designed with an intentionally higher back EMF on the generated leg (more turns of wire), or it can be boosted with a capacitive compensator, or it can be boosted with a transformer. You can even ignore the difference, but it may require derating load motors.

The best way is the designed-in extra turns. The transformer is also good, although it adds impedance in the generated leg, resulting in more voltage drop, but it is absolutely predictable as far as output voltage. The capacitor method is the most popular, but the least stable, because it is very loading-dependent, and because the light load performance need causes the heavier load performance to be compromised, you cannot tolerate the high voltage that would occur at light loads if the heavy load were compensated fully.
 
Yep, RPC's don't make perfect three phase. With balancing, they are plenty good enough to run motors on mills and lathes. BUT the "wild" leg is not dependable. DON'T use it to run controls computers etc.

Personally I mark the wild leg with yellow tape everywhere I can. Serves as a warning.
 
If you understand how the RPC works, you will understand why the capacitor method is unstable, and why using a transformer is in some ways better. It is not ideal, the ideal way is a change in the idler design. Also, the phase angles will be very close to perfectly at 120 deg, unless mucked with using capacitors.

1) A three phase motor (or single phase, etc) produces a "back EMF", a voltage that opposes the applied voltage. That is an essential part of how it works. That voltage is what cuts the starting "inrush" current down to the load current required by the shaft power output needed. Each phase of that has to exactly oppose the incoming voltage, so yes, it WILL be closely at 120 degrees, and improves with load..

2) The back EMF is ALWAYS less than the effective line voltage, because the difference between them is what drives current into the motor. The difference will vary with load, but it exists.

3) The "generated leg" is actually the back EMF if the 3rd phase wire. Remembering that it MUST BE less than the effective mains (line) voltage, you can easily see that it will need to be boosted. The idler motor can be designed with an intentionally higher back EMF on the generated leg (more turns of wire), or it can be boosted with a capacitive compensator, or it can be boosted with a transformer. You can even ignore the difference, but it may require derating load motors.

The best way is the designed-in extra turns. The transformer is also good, although it adds impedance in the generated leg, resulting in more voltage drop, but it is absolutely predictable as far as output voltage. The capacitor method is the most popular, but the least stable, because it is very loading-dependent, and because the light load performance need causes the heavier load performance to be compromised, you cannot tolerate the high voltage that would occur at light loads if the heavy load were compensated fully.

So going a lot bigger than necessary on a rotary phase converter that uses capacitors is not advisable? Or is that why the manufacturers suggest doubling the rating of large loads like CNC mills/lathes? The phase converter would hold voltage better at high amps without being too high for small loads?

I'm researching this and will buying one soon. I have a 12hp CNC mill and may buy a manual mill very soon. I'd like to put in a larger converter and run a separate 3 phase distribution panel for the machines instead of messing around with separate VFD's or phase converters for each.
 
So going a lot bigger than necessary on a rotary phase converter that uses capacitors is not advisable? Or is that why the manufacturers suggest doubling the rating of large loads like CNC mills/lathes? The phase converter would hold voltage better at high amps without being too high for small loads?

I'm researching this and will buying one soon. I have a 12hp CNC mill and may buy a manual mill very soon. I'd like to put in a larger converter and run a separate 3 phase distribution panel for the machines instead of messing around with separate VFD's or phase converters for each.

Unless otherwise stated by the manufacturer, a machine should be able to operate reliably and without damage on a voltage range of +- 10%. If you buy a commercial unit, it should say what the variance of voltage will be. My experience is that the RPC will stay within that range (running).

An oversized system is necessary to get the motor on line. The starting (inrush) current of large motors (>~5 hp) is 6x running. To handle the additional current a larger generator(RPC motor) is needed. If the generated leg drops too low, the motor will try to start as an open delta. There won't be the needed phase shift so the motor may not start or start very slowly.

Case in point. I have 3 hp rpc that drives a 3 hp motor on a Monarch lathe. I had the rpc, I tried it, it worked so I didn't upgrade. However, the lathe motor just sort of winds up rather than snapping on. Other motors on the same supply (1 hp Bridgeport) comes up smartly.

Based on what you have said, I would say a minimum of 20 hp, perhaps 25 hp ideal. All of the installations have seen work as you want, a central power system going to a panel board and from there to the individual drops.

Tom
 
I'll just 2nd this. I have a Mazak M4 20 hp lathe. Went to 35 hp (15 + 20) total in the RPC to get it to start. Still dims all the lights though. 50 hp would be better.
 
So going a lot bigger than necessary on a rotary phase converter that uses capacitors is not advisable? Or is that why the manufacturers suggest doubling the rating of large loads like CNC mills/lathes? The phase converter would hold voltage better at high amps without being too high for small loads?

I'm researching this and will buying one soon. I have a 12hp CNC mill and may buy a manual mill very soon. I'd like to put in a larger converter and run a separate 3 phase distribution panel for the machines instead of messing around with separate VFD's or phase converters for each.

Remember that the two original wires have NOTHING in series but contactors.... The generated leg has a motor winding, the rotor, and another motor winding in series, with some magnetically coupled. That stuff adds "impedance", it "impedes" the flow of current, producing a voltage drop on the generated leg that does not exist on the others.

So with a large inrush, or a heavy load, the voltage on the generated leg drops quite a bit more than on the original wires. Adding transformers is not perfect, because it adds even more drop to the generated leg. But it does control what the MAXIMUM voltage will be, allowing you to have a somewhat larger boost than with capacitors.

Having a bigger converter without capacitors or transformers, etc does not fix the inherent voltage difference, but it does lower the motor impedance, giving a smaller voltage drop on the generated leg as load increases. That can often be a better compromise than adding parts and extra impedance. And it also has a stable and predictable output voltage.

it sounds silly, and it may be, but the best way to better balance the 3 phase output of the RPC is to add impedance to the original two legs... at least that way there is a voltage drop, but it is close to the same on all lines. It would act like a weaker, but balanced, 3 phase supply. I am not recommending that, but it could provide good balance........
 








 
Back
Top