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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krankieone View Post
    The idler is currently wired in Wye (star) configuration with neutral to the centre point and 3 live legs at 415v. If I can't find anything wrong with the wiring I may rewire the idler in delta to see if that helps
    Dunno if that was wall to idler, idler to load, or both, but I suggest you PM or email Jim Kennedy the data plate info with a wiring sketch and sort this out "in country".

    It ain't hard once the confusion is separated-out.

    I've been to Oz. Shit just works. I even like hamburger and egg, fried green tomatoes, lamb chops, and can survive TWO VB .... before my head splits open!


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    thermite I have a 6pack of VB in the fridge

    got out to the shed and checked out a couple of things this evening.

    RPC voltage no load 410 - 430v & with 7.5 hp mill running 400 - 410v.

    dropped drive belts off motor it spins freely

    wired motor directly to RPC socket it rotated slowly made a humming noise checked voltages again L1- L2 390v L2 - L3 408v L1 -L3 240v ????? measured at RPC L2-L3 has 35uf capacitor across it ,L1 is 240v line in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krankieone View Post
    thermite I have a 6pack of VB in the fridge
    Many years ago, I actually met the guy who was personally responsible for the major program that had introduced "Fosters" to the North American market and asked him why he didn't bring in VB! Fosters was bland, may as well have been Coors, whilst VB had character to it.

    Victoria Bitters was still the original independent company back in that day.

    He said they HAD actually tried to do. His team had met with the minders, outlined their plan, estimated the expansion it would require of the VB brewery to support the assured success in a numerically larger market.

    The response was about as classical "norstrilian" as one could ask for:

    "Why would we want to do that? We already sell all we make."

    "But you don't understand, The Americans would love it and you could sell MORE!"

    "No mate. YOU don't understand. We drink it 'ERE!"

    And so it ended until new ownership came along! It's at my local supermart long years, already.

    I've always loved the taste of VB. The "original" of the 1960's as first enjoyed in Darwin, anyway. But then or now, it actually DOES give me a headache!


  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krankieone View Post
    thermite I have a 6pack of VB in the fridge

    got out to the shed and checked out a couple of things this evening.

    RPC voltage no load 410 - 430v & with 7.5 hp mill running 400 - 410v.

    dropped drive belts off motor it spins freely

    wired motor directly to RPC socket it rotated slowly made a humming noise checked voltages again L1- L2 390v L2 - L3 408v L1 -L3 240v ????? measured at RPC L2-L3 has 35uf capacitor across it ,L1 is 240v line in.


    Ok

    Now we know the RPC is putting out (or trying to) the right voltage even under what seems to be a heavy load.

    The next step in my opinion is to get a motor shop to look at that motor on the Monarch. From what you measured, I really suspect that there is a bad winding in it. If it is sucking one of the generated legs down that far, there is probably a serious problem.

    If the motor happens to have dual voltages, then maybe there is a reversed winding in it, but otherwise, I suspect a motor problem with that motor.

    Here we have an RPC that starts a bigger motor, starts a smaller motor, but will not start this one, AND the voltages show a heavy load when you try. All evidence that the issue is with that particular motor, and.or its wiring.

    I would not try to run it any more without getting it checked out. You might damage something else, like the RPC.

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    Does the motor and or spindle turn by hand? I once had a guy forget to take my South Bend out of back gear mode after engaging it for high speed. It of coarse didn't want to turn. Don't know if there is a similar possibility on yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danil View Post
    Does the motor and or spindle turn by hand? I once had a guy forget to take my South Bend out of back gear mode after engaging it for high speed. It of coarse didn't want to turn. Don't know if there is a similar possibility on yours.
    Drive belts removed from clutch

    I called the local motor guy and will take it in to be checked out Wednesday then at least I will know if it is a motor problem or a RPC problem.

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    Had the motor checked out it ran fine on his bench bought it back home same as before. I inadvertently left the pony motor running on the RPC and it fired right up checked amps with clamp meter & ok .

    Tried hooking up a start capacitor it did start then went bang (Note to self :put on reading glasses when checking voltage on capacitors ) .

    After recomposing myself I found 2 50uf capacitors of a suitable voltage and it started right up several times amp draw is ok.
    Next step is to reinstall the motor and check it out underload.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krankieone View Post
    Had the motor checked out it ran fine on his bench bought it back home same as before. I inadvertently left the pony motor running on the RPC and it fired right up checked amps with clamp meter & ok .

    Tried hooking up a start capacitor it did start then went bang (Note to self :put on reading glasses when checking voltage on capacitors ) .

    After recomposing myself I found 2 50uf capacitors of a suitable voltage and it started right up several times amp draw is ok.
    Next step is to reinstall the motor and check it out underload.
    No foul. Electrolytic capacitors were MEANT to become pyrotechnical in nature when they mature! Why d'you suppose they resemble blasting caps?

    You've earned a VB, I shall settle for Red Stripe!



    Well done! "Local solution" after all, yah!

    OTOH?

    The average Australian (mind no Australian is EVER just "average", there's the reason the middle is so vacant downunder ) is too busy with other stuff to mess with your head.

    No fear. Just drop in any time you get bored for lack of distractions or abuse, and PM can stitch you right up in a New York Minute!


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    Good.

    Any idea what the original issue really was?

    Had to be something.... it seemed to be doing a good imitation of a miswired or bad motor............

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Good.

    Any idea what the original issue really was?

    Had to be something.... it seemed to be doing a good imitation of a miswired or bad motor............
    Ummhhhh.. you ah... aren't suggesting.. that we ... try to have him re-create a problem already gone.. just out of curiosity, are you, J?

    I don't think that will fly.

    You'd have to know Australians!


  13. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Ummhhhh.. you ah... aren't suggesting.. that we ... try to have him re-create a problem already gone.. just out of curiosity, are you, J?

    I don't think that will fly.

    You'd have to know Australians!


    I would not do THAT myself......but he may have noticed what was different when he put it back in.

    SOMETHING was clearly different, because it worked when replaced, and di not when originally tried. Motor shop may have just reconnected windings as part of their procedure, or the shorted wire was moved when motor put in, no telling.

    What I WOULD do, and might be a good idea for the OP, is to give a good hard look-over to the wiring, to make sure there is not the same problem hiding somewhere... Vibration may dislodge a wire that has a bare spot, and let it flop back where it was on the edge of a piece of metal, or the like.

    The OP will not want the same thing to pop up later and maybe damage something. Just a good precaution.
    N

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    I'm working night shift in the miĺl tonight and we should be cutting hay on the farm tomorrow if all goes to plan .So hope to find an hour or two in the next couple of dażs to get the motor reinstaĺed and to try and sort out the mess of wireing .
    I need to work out how to set up the start capacitor so it will work when the factory start button is pressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krankieone View Post
    ........
    I need to work out how to set up the start capacitor so it will work when the factory start button is pressed.
    Hold on there....... Is there a start capacitor with the lathe motor?

    You are supplying it with a 3 phase source..... so why is there a start capacitor? You should not need one for the lathe motor.

    I saw that before, but assumed it referred to the RPC idler.... which needs one since it starts on single phase.

    Hopefully you ARE referring to the RPC......If there is any start capacitor on the lathe motor, get rid of it. If there is one, then the lathe must have been used on single phase, and some form of a "static phase converter" was installed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Hold on there....... Is there a start capacitor with the lathe motor?

    You are supplying it with a 3 phase source..... so why is there a start capacitor? You should not need one for the lathe motor.

    I saw that before, but assumed it referred to the RPC idler.... which needs one since it starts on single phase.

    Hopefully you ARE referring to the RPC......
    Seconded.

    The only reason a 3-Phase LOAD motor would "appear" to benefit from a start cap is if it is being fed with an already "dropped" phase. Similar to a "static" converter application, or if it was ITSELF being asked to act as an RPC idler.

    If that is, in fact, where the "start" cap iS, and the motor shop had no such problem on "store bought" 3-Phase?

    Back to detective work on the RPC, its wiring and switchgear you go.

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    Termite start cap is for the lathe yes I know it is not the ideal solution but it works. I suspect the RPC could use some fine tuning I have ordered some gauges so I can see the voltages at the same time until the then I'm just going to use it.

    I unsure why this motor is hard to start,the motor guy started it with a static converter.

    I took a 60 thou cut at the highest speed and it didn't bog down so it seems to work okay under load.

  18. #36
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    So the motor guy did NOT run it oon 3 phase?

    And you CAN get it to start?

    Well OK, but that capacitor, if it is a "start" capacitor on the lathe motor, you DO NOT WANT IT. There is no reason for it when you run the machine from any kind of reasonable 3 phase power, like RPC or VFD.

    All I can figure is that the previous owner used it on single phase, and installed some sort of "static converter" inside the lathe wiring area.

    You do not need those parts, you are running from what amounts to real 3 phase, and a 3 phase motor should start on it with no extra parts. Your mill does, the other motor (pump?) does,

    Take out the extra parts and wire it per the factory wiring, and it should just plain run.

  19. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krankieone View Post
    Termite start cap is for the lathe yes I know it is not the ideal solution but it works. I suspect the RPC could use some fine tuning I have ordered some gauges so I can see the voltages at the same time until the then I'm just going to use it.

    I unsure why this motor is hard to start,the motor guy started it with a static converter.

    I took a 60 thou cut at the highest speed and it didn't bog down so it seems to work okay under load.
    It's .. "unusual"... is all.

    As if you have a hybrid between RPC and static converter by description.

    If/as/when my RPC can RUN the load, but might struggle to start it, I can drop a 5 HP "supplementery idler" onto the 10 HP idler first. Then drop it off after the load motor is running.

    Your description of a start cap, load side of the RPC seems to be doing a similar service. To wit: Enhancing startup.

    MY "SWAG" is that in utilizing the particular type of motor you have for an RPC idler - to power off single-phase at 2XX VAC in, and run a load at 4XX VAC out, the effective idler HP is only somewhere around HALF of what we have been giving it credit for from the motor nameplate HP rating.

    The more familiar (to me) US/Japan situation, we would have a 2XX VAC idler, both "sides', and THEN a 2XX to 4XX 3-phase transformer. ELSE would have re-strapped the load motor from 4XX back down to 2XX.

    Aside from a minor waste in the transformer, we would have an idler operating at its "full" nameplate HP. I don't think your one is doing that.

    But that is only a SWAG. I can't see the nameplate nor wiring very well from here!



    Perhaps another Australian more familiar with this environment can vet the maths?.

    Apropos of nothing much, a 60 thou DOC is trivial for that lathe, decent HSS-Cobalt, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    ......
    MY "SWAG" is that in utilizing the particular type of motor you have for an RPC idler - to power off single-phase at 2XX VAC in, and run a load at 4XX VAC out, the effective idler HP is only somewhere around HALF of what we have been giving it credit for from the motor nameplate HP rating.

    The more familiar (to me) US/Japan situation, we would have a 2XX VAC idler, both "sides', and THEN a 2XX to 4XX 3-phase transformer. ELSE would have re-strapped the load motor from 4XX back down to 2XX.

    Aside from a minor waste in the transformer, we would have an idler operating at its "full" nameplate HP. I don't think your one is doing that.

    But that is only a SWAG. I can't see the nameplate nor wiring very well from here!



    Perhaps another Australian more familiar with this environment can vet the maths?.

    Apropos of nothing much, a 60 thou DOC is trivial for that lathe, decent HSS-Cobalt, etc.
    Don't forget.... the lathe is 3 HP, but the converter starts a 7.5 HP motor on the mill. It would seem to have the necessary "grunt" to get the lathe going.

    If he clears that crazy static converter crap out of there, it ought to just plain work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Don't forget.... the lathe is 3 HP,
    Not yet, it is not. Symptom is that it is single-phasing, not because the RPC is missing a phase, but because the wiring, contactors, or motor are.

    Dunno what a "motor shop" is doing with a static (not) converter even on the premises, but the motor has not yet been tested.

    If the 60 thou cut was on the diameter, he's drawn about 1/2 HP off that lathe's ratios.

    If 60 thou on the radius, he's at about ONE HP of the 3HP.

    Where are the other two HP? Well -OK - assume a perfect RPC, (91% of nameplate, is it?) the other 2.7 HP.

    That, and the need of the cap, plus failure to start without it say "dropped phase" to me.

    but the converter starts a 7.5 HP motor on the mill. It would seem to have the necessary "grunt" to get the lathe going.
    The mill's motor is OK. The lathe's motor needs tested. Not just fiddled with.
    If he clears that crazy static converter crap out of there, it ought to just plain work.
    Agreed. Then the lathe motor will go back to square one, and tell its story - such as it may be.

    Set for mid-RPM, take a .250" DOC or 1/2" on the diameter, it might make that clear right away, too. Low RPM, it is capable of more-yet.

    It is not a South Bend lightweight hobby lathe born with Iron deficiency anaemia.

    It is a Monarch industrial engine lathe as had proper nutrition from conception onward.

    Until now, anyway.

  22. #40
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    Apparently it was run on that static converter system for some time. Else why the devil is it IN there?

    The resulting phase for 129 + 60 or so more from the capacitor is not going to produce much torque.

    The OP needs to wire the sucker per factory and then we will see.

    Agree on motor shop... they must not do much with 3 phase. I have seen shops with a big motor on single phase running a 3 phase generator. That would work nicely if of appropriate size.

    A static "converter"? Not so much. Maybe if they tried all 3 combinations of wires.... at least they would have powered them all up, and covered the bases if it happened to be delta.


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