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    Default Smart and Brown 1024 VSL

    Hello every one, i'm new to the forum and have just aqquired the above lathe, it is as i'm sure you all know 3 phase, my question is this would i be better off, if its possible that is, to swap out the motor for a 240v equivalent and then run the 110v side of things from a 240v to 110v tansformer, it seams a simpler way to me than rpc or i could be totally wrong, any advice will be much appreciated.
    Thanks, George.

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    Have never seen one of those up close except in a picture. What you propose would make you massage the inside electrics so that everything works. For me, no thanks.

    RPC or VFD

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    Have never seen one of those up close except in a picture. What you propose would make you massage the inside electrics so that everything works. For me, no thanks.

    RPC or VFD
    Merely fielding the question..
    Thankyou for your reply by the way, i was thinking RPC and it was the thought of buying a motor to build it that got me thinking a 24Ov motor swap would be a simple thing to do, things in life are rarely that simple, looking on line it seams a VFD is not suitable for this machine, i like the idea of a self build.

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    George,
    I too have a S&B 1024, mine being the older geared head with the 3 speed motor.
    Mine was converted to a single speed 3 phase motor with a VFD, by the previous owner ( and friend). It is a nice installation, but one must consider that he was an industrial instrumentation guy all his career.
    SO... if possible just leave the 3 phase motor in there and provide 3 phase power to the original system ( you don't comment on the voltage requirement). If this is not practical then do the motor-ectomy. In the S&B 1024 it is not that big a job.

    Peter

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    Thanks for your reply Peter, that is helpful the machine is 410v dont quote me on that, and i believe there are other motors that drive the oil pump and 110v for the control panel so could be taking something on getting it all to work, i will make up my mind once it arrives and i can peer inside it. Sorry forgot to mention its arriving at the weekend i hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Liquor View Post
    i like the idea of a self build.
    I just put together my second generation RPC. The mechanical work was more difficult than the electrical. Just saying that if you want a self-build to look good then it takes time to design that, where to drill holes, etc.

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    My 1024 VSL runs off one of the "whole shop plug and play" converted 220 V in 440 V out inverters from Drives Direct. 10 HP box running 50 Hz all the time pretending to be utility three phase, not cheap but it does the deed. Runs all my machines fine. Basically one at a time plus Hydrovane 02 compressor and Rapidor saw. Largest single motor being 3 HP. But the 1024VSL will make it grunt on start-up with a decent job in the chuck as there is no clutch so it hard starts under load.

    Simple way is to give it proper utility 3 phase which just works.

    My box was easy to wire in and handles the load. But I added the output smoothing chokes to help reduce the shock of direct motor switching.

    Transwave or similar RPC is also easy to wire in but you will almost certainly need a 7.5 HP one to be fully satisfactory. 5 HP one may well need you to be religious about running the variable speed down before starting larger jobs. How large counts as large tho'.

    I believe the standard motor is 6 wire and can be reconfigured to delta allowing it run off 220 volts so a standard VFD can be used to run it up to speed in the normal way. You will need to re-configure the control circuitry and make other arrangements to run the speed change motor (and the coolant pump if you plan to use it). I imagine the "capacitor trick" simple static inverter will work on both speed change motor and coolant pump. Or you could just get separate VFD boxes for them. Low power ones aren't silly expensive now. I looked into this when I got mine some years ago but VFD boxes were relatively more expensive then and re-configuring the control side looked a whole lot of work. So I ponied up for the Drives Direct box.

    On later reflection I realised that control re-configuration for 220 V VFD wasn't as tricky as I'd thought. Basically just keep the original contactors powered via the single phase input and use slave relays on the VFD controls.

    I'm told that voltage doubling an ordinary 3 or 4 hp VFD so it can run the motor in its standard 440 Wye configuration isn't particularily successful. Issues with getting up to top speed apparently.

    At todays prices I'd probably reconfigure the main motor to delta, re-jig the control side with slave relays and get three VFD boxes. I like the Eaton DE range for this sort of thing as they are specifically designed to replace conventional contactor control gear in this sort or run up to nominal speed application. No speed display or external controls makes them cheaper. With varispeed built in to the lathe you don't need speed control via the VFD. Inverter Drive Supermarket do the 2.2 KW (3hp) version for £135 + VAT. Small ones for the speed control and pump motors will be about £70 + VAT a pop. Relays for the inverter controls won't be silly expensive. I'd expect to have change from £350. Not pocket money but not too shabby for all new, all kosher engineering and certain to work. Just need to be sure that all three motors can be re-configured to delta. Standard controls appear to be 220 volt coils in both 3 and 4 wire versions. Well mile are 220 V!

    Although the VSL is a bit easier to work with than the older version with three speed motor its still a heavy job getting the motor out. Not something I fancy trying.

    Clive
    Last edited by Clive603; 06-06-2019 at 03:56 AM.

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    Thank you Clive thats very interesting and gives me something to think about, the info i have gleaned from the net is a bit conflicting, i will make an assessment of my own when the machine arrives and take it from there, thanks again for the advice.
    George.

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    George

    On overnight reflection I'm now pretty sure that if you disable the electromagnetic brake you can run the Eaton DE series inverter direct from the control switches without slave relays. Probably best to change the switches for low voltage ones, various makers do industrial standard switch kits where you mix and match buttons, bezels and the switch itself to get what you want. Not super cheap but not too spendy. I've used Telemecanique ones in the past.

    The brake unit is part of the motor with a speed sensitive switch that operates on slow down so an internal connection will have to be undone. If left as is under VFD drive it could well fight with the VFD slow-down settings. Generally VFD ramp down is fine for stopping a lathe anyway. Never been inside the motor myself so I'm not familiar with the details.

    If you are considering a DIY rotary converter do take a careful look at the costs. They mount up. These days its probably not financially viable unless you have many of the parts already or can get them at mates rates. Looks easy to spend £250 - £300 on a DIY 5 hp unit. Then there is the issue of tuning the thing so it works well. Even the professional ones from Transwave et al can have issues. The like a big cable and good connections to the utility supply. I have built a dozen or so converters over the years, both static and rotary for myself and other folk. All new, properly made, static hasn't been viable since about year 2000, rotary since maybe 2004 but that mostly due to them being bigger. I'll never build another.

    Recently set up a Schneider ATV12 2.2kW inverter on a friends compressor. Originally tested with an Eaton but decided to go for the Schneider as it is true vector drive with automatic set-up and not that much more expensive. The Eaton needs a set-up box (which I have), that rather wipes out any savings on single installation.

    I shall be interested to see how you get on. Right now I'm mulling over whether its worth abandoning my big whole shop box for separate inverters on each machine. Net cost after selling on the big box isn't too shabby.

    Clive

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    VFD's offer so many benefits it's hard to justify any other route. With a bit of common sense it's not hard to modify or adapt the machines existing switch gear to control the VFD.

    Clive, I'd be interested to hear why you are considering abandoning your big VFD. I looked at the same type but couldn't justify the cost at the time. Now with more machines accumulated it could make more sense.

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    This looks interesting from AVE.
    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renardiere View Post
    VFD's offer so many benefits it's hard to justify any other route. With a bit of common sense it's not hard to modify or adapt the machines existing switch gear to control the VFD.

    Clive, I'd be interested to hear why you are considering abandoning your big VFD. I looked at the same type but couldn't justify the cost at the time. Now with more machines accumulated it could make more sense.
    Renardiere

    I've no complaints with the performance of my big VFD box.

    But its an all the eggs in one basket thing.

    If it goes down I have no three phase until it gets fixed. Also its a single supplier modification of a standard product not an off the shelf unit. So if it does go pop I have to wait for repair, which may not even be possible in years to come given the way electronics goes obsolete. Can't just go out and buy another.

    VFD prices have fallen a lot since I put it in and the hit for going to a one per machine or even one per motor set-up has become acceptable assuming I can trade mine for a decent figure. 7 machines, potentially 10 motors. Ideal would be to get my three phase incomer hooked up and three phase meters installed but finding a guy who can do that seems to be impossible in my neck of the woods. Given that switching suppliers on a regular basis seems essential to avoid rip-off electricity prices I do wonder what happens with a new 3 phase domestic installation. Then there is the solar panel hook up issue (which phase?). And don't even think about the smart meter thing.

    The world moves on, times change and best decision then may turn round and bite you now. 20-20 hindsight says I should have put 3 phase in when I built the workshop back in 2004.

    George

    Neat video but that is a standard 220 V single phase in 220 V three phase out box on a rinky dinky Boxford lathe. Simple standard motor and, originally, just a Direct on Line starter box with a contactor inside. The 1024 VSL is bit more complicated but its all do-able. As per earlier post the Eaton DE series are designed to be near enough a direct replacement for basic DoL set-ups so are easy to fit but lack some of the bells and whistles. The Schneider box is full featured VFD at a very attractive price. I'm certain either would do fine on a 1024.

    Plenty of other good brands. Its just that I have direct experience of fitting and using those two this year. Far, far easier than it used to be for sure. No more wading through (apparently) 20 ft long lists of impenetrable codes doing things you don't understand.

    If you do decide to go VFD Inverter Drive Supermarket have a well deserved reputation for customer service. They took, objectively, far too much trouble to sort out my mate Mike who'd already more than exhausted my patience. But he ended up with a good deal on the right thing.

    Clive

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    Make a RPC. Figure out or ask how to make a good one, not one of those skimpy designs floating around on the internet.
    Get a good quality VFD and read about how they work.

    Get to know both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    Make a RPC. Figure out or ask how to make a good one, not one of those skimpy designs floating around on the internet.
    Get a good quality VFD and read about how they work.

    Get to know both.
    I am attracted to the RPC solution as from what i have learned once set up i can just plug in the lathe and run it without having to mess with it at all, is that right. Also to use a VFD would i have to configure the motor to delta 240v would this cause power loss or would the VFD need to be single phase 240v in 440v 3 phase out? as you can tell i am new to this.

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    George

    Yup an RPC will be pretty much plug and play providing its correctly sized and has enough starting punch to get the machine going with a decent size job in the chuck. I'd think a 5 HP commercial brand, Transwave or similar, should be up for it but a 3 HP one would struggle at times.

    That said I do know of one guy whose 5 HP RPC went down and killed its internal motor, a 1024 VSL was what it was mostly used on. However this was one of the "clever" RPC units with an internal tuning box said to dynamically adjust the internal capacitor banks to keep the phase currents stable. Think very low rent version of the PhasePerfect units common in America. On strip down the owner was less than impressed with the internal arrangements and suspects that this tuning box went down leading to the demise of the internal motor. I sold him a 5HP motor I had lying around doing nowt and he re-jigged the internals to the standard configuration as used by Transwave and most other makers with entirely satisfactory results. Looks like the clever ones are off the market now which may mean something!

    Obviously any advice folks give you on this topic will reflect their personal experiences and priorities so its best to get a good cross section of views and go with the guy who's situation was nearest to yours.

    In my view the options can be ranked in descending order of (new) cost and increasing hassle / DIY effort factor as follows :-

    1) Utility three phase, £ ?? thousand :- Most expensive, need an electrician to install it and sign off but you just have to put the plug in. Safe and just works for however many machines you have.

    2) Plug and Play 220 in 440 out VFD box, £1,500 - £3,000 (ish) :- Not cheap but you can wire it yourself. A 10 HP one is known to work on a 1204 VSL and should supply any sane persons workshop needs, a 5 HP one should do the deed but will be working hard on start up and may not quite be big enough for the future shop contents.

    3) Commercial RPC, £1,500 - £3,000 :- Plug and play but has to run all the time which may be distracting. A 5HP one ought to be enough to run a VSL and should be up for future requirements but many be close to the edge at start up. I've known a Transwave 5 HP having issues with the 3 HP motor on a hydrovane rotary compressor in cold weather. (Unlike piston compressors Hydrovane is not generally considered a heavy start load.) I'd go for a 7.5 HP RPC, maybe 10 HP if I had serious ambitions for extra machines but larger commercial RPC boxes have minimum motor power specifications and may require adjustment of tuning switches. Three phase output is almost invariably imperfect, unless you luckily hit the sweet spot, but usually more than good enough for machines. Bigger ones may have issues with RCD and MCB breakers in the mains input. Best supplied via a dedicated connection and checked by an electrician.

    4)Static converter with (large) permanent idler motor, £400 - £600 :- Clarke (Machine Mart) and other makers do properly packaged 5.5 HP 220 V in 440 V out static phase converters which can readily be made into pseudo rotary converters by adding a 3 phase idler motor of nameplate rated output power. Free running 3 phase motor doesn't take much power, probably turns a 5.5 HP rated box into true 5 HP one. I've done this with MotoRun static converters in the past and it works about as well as a proper RPC but you need to fiddle with the switches to get the phases balanced. Back in the day only practical way was by ear, significant out of balance made things buzz loudly. These days you can buy clamp on current meters for under £10. Not objectively particularly accurate but one hooked permanently on each line would make it easy to see that the phase currents were adequately balanced. Three of same brand should read pretty similar.

    5) VFD boxes, one per motor £300 - £500 for the three :- Needs motors converted to 220 V delta and, in the case of the 1024, a certain amount of control system rejigging. Once done just works. Big advantage is that the VFD units will be bog standard commercial units so it one dies its easily changed. Needs another VFD if you buy another machine tho'.

    6) Self build RPC, £200 up depending on how nice a job you make and what can be got cheaply :- Considerable amount of work, significant issues with finding good UK specific circuit details with all the vital information on how to set it up. First time I did one was with the "help" of a single page A4 sheet circuit drawing. I knew electrical and electronics but it wasn't easy! Couple of commercial suppliers of diagrams and parts lists for around £15- £20. If you are seriously considering going this route, invest in a set. Read-up on whats involved and add up the costs to you of getting all the components. Spending £20 to discover that it is not the way for you or that the promised cost savings evaporate if you haven't got a degree in dumpster diving is not wasted money. I'm deeply suspicious of the "How I did it for thruppence three farthing and got it to work on my machine" folks. I suspect that if you have to buy significant amounts of new-new parts, a transformer and motor will make serious holes in the budget, converting a Clarke or similar commercial static converter will come out at similar cost or maybe less. And it will be neat. Do budget for a triplet of clamp on current meters. Balancing up a home build can be a right pain in the butt (how do I know?).

    7) Static converter, £ how much money do you want to waste? :- A static converter will not run the main motor but home built static units should be OK on the speed change and coolant pump motors. I've built enough that it would be no bother for me but frankly, not worth the effort as a small VFD will cost little more.

    Thats my three ha'pence worth.

    In your position I'd go the basic VFD route and accept the work of re-configuring the controls. For plug and play 220 V in - 440 V out from a converted static looks to be good balance of bang per buck and not too much work. Maybe use the DIY plans to do a better job of converting the static to a true rotary. But this particular elderly penguin has more than enough electrical knowledge and experience to make such jobs pretty easy. Different if its your first rodeo.

    Clive

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    Great post Clive thank you, if i went VFD and put the motor in delta would that mean the VFD would need to supply 240v three phase? i have seen a Yaskawa GDP 505 7.5kw at a good price, not sure if it will do the job though.
    Thanks again, George.
    Actually after looking at the spec the Yaskawa requires 3 phase 240v input.

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    George

    Yes if you converted the motors to delta the VFD would need to supply 220 volt three phase. Which is the norm for single to three phase conversion VFD boxes.

    Its maybe 10 years since I looked at this for mine so my thinking on the details of how to do it are somewhat out of date. Seems to me that affordable but decent quality VFD boxes have suddenly got a whole lot cleverer over the last couple or three years.

    You really need to discuss this with a good supplier to get the most appropriate units.

    May help to go through the requirements. Remember VFD boxes can operate in Run mode where you hit the button and it keeps going until you hit Stop and Jog mode where it only runs whilst you hold the button down.

    Main motor needs to both run and jog in both directions. The standard switchgear has a rotary switch to select continuous running or jog (labelled "inch" on mine) mode. A VFD box may do things differently with separate buttons. I'd prefer the switch.

    The speed change motor must only run when the main motor is running and spindle turning. Only needs to operate in jog mode but must be able to run in both directions regardless of whether the main motor is running in forward or reverse. Old style conventional control gear uses slave relays or contactors powered off the output side of the main motor contactor to put power on the second motor. Modern VFD's may well have a master - slave link capability in the low voltage control side so the second (speed change) VFD can only run if the first (main motor) VFD is active.

    The coolant motor needs only to run forwards. Standard is a separate switch but its arguably better to arrange things so that it normally can only run when the spindle is turning with an override position that only works when the spindle is stationary to get the coolant pointed in the right direction.

    Back in the day I looked into some fancy relay control gear to do it all off one VFD but these days I suspect linking up three boxes is quite possible. Although if the motor powers are similar there seems to be no reason why the coolant and speed change motors shouldn't share a VFD. Whether the extra expense and futzing around on the control side is worth the saving on the VFD side is debatable. With an old school VFD the coolant pump could usually be run quite happily off the same VFD as the main motor as the extra load was quite small. Dunno about doing that with the modern self tuning vector drive ones.

    If the speed change and coolant pumps are fixed in wye, 440 v mode, it may well be possible to use an auto transformer to generate 440 v single phase from the normal 220 v mains and run a suitably derated 440 V three phase VFD off that. Don't think that trick is viable for the main motor tho', needs big (read expensive) transformer, so you will have to change that over to Delta as well as disabling the brake.

    Clive
    Last edited by Clive603; 06-10-2019 at 01:30 AM.

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    Thanks again Clive another very useful post, you are right talking to a VFD supplier who knows the subject is the way to go, i will have a good look at the lathe internals when it arrives (tomorrow) and then talk to a supplier, see what they recommend, i will post my findings.
    Thanks again, George.

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    Its here at last, what a carry on getting a haulier to bring it, the first guy strung me along for a week then stopped answering his phone, every one else wanted an arm and a leg, luckily the seller managed to sort it out for me at the same price the first guy quoted by chipping in the £100 difference which was very good of him. I had a look at the motors, the coolant pump is dual voltage 380v/220v as is the speed change motor, the main motor however is 440v only so i will need either 240v in 440v out VFD or a RPC, im not too bothered about the coolant pump but i will need to power the speed control motor so 2 VFD's. That's as far as i have got so far, i also need to have a look at the gear box as they say it doesn't change gear?
    George.

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    George

    Glad you got it home OK in the end.

    Slightly confused by your reference to gearbox and changing gear. Do you mean the direct drive / back gear selector system. If thats not working properly odds are you have issues with the bronze shoes that move the sliding dog between direct drive and back gear setting. If I recall correctly these are just held to the forks by allen cap head screws and if the screws are loose the sliding action can jam up.

    Lift the top and its all pretty visible. I had some selection issues with mine and eventually had to re-time the system to get proper engagement both ways. Considerable fiddling round until I twigged how to do it. Mine had the ball and spring detent assembly jammed up. How? Looked as if previous owner had been inside rather than just pulling the lever off to remove ball and damaged spring so a new on could be fitted. If you do pull that lever off I think the innards can get out of sync. Best to have top off so you can see whats going on. I didn't and had to figure it out from scratch. But it may have been out of sync already.

    Clive


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