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Relay logic to control VFD: design & relay selection

ancientbrass

Plastic
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Good morning, colleagues!

I'm in the process of revamping the wiring on an old eastern European multi-purpose mill/lathe/shaper, while maintaining the original control hardware (because it's robust and convenient). I'm in a one-person owner-operator shop.

Situation is this: I have a VFD that can run 2- or 3-wire control, but there's no means to obtain FWD/REV/STOP(RESET) without control logic. (The FWD and REV controls are momentary NO, STOP is NC; VFD expects a fwd/rev switch and not separate FWD and REV run signals)

I am thinking to add a simple relay circuit to manage control, and then operate the VFD in 2-wire mode. FWD would trigger a holding relay, which triggers RUN on the VFD, and REV triggers RUN + a hold on REV.

My questions: (1) is this reasonable and (2) would low-impedance reed relays be a good choice for this job?

Edit: I would ideally like to supply voltage to the relays directly from the VFD control terminals, rather than using an external power supply.
 
Please post the make and model of the VFD you plan to use, or information about available voltage and current on the VFD terminals.
The FWD and REV controls are momentary NO, STOP is NC
The control buttons you want to reuse are the momentary buttons you mention correct?
 
what is the voltage to your shop in Germany? do you have 3 phase? Sounds like you want the use the original switches on your machine so what are you really wanting to do?
 
Here is a simple relay logic circuit that could be used if you don't already have one. Sorry about the US schematic symbols, don't have this with DE style symbols.

RelayLogic.jpg
 
Thank you both for your followup!

@Rustysparks - Exactly - the original wiring was with a 24v control circuit, momentary NO run, NO rev and NC stop buttons. (actually a brilliant little joystick controller!)

I'll get back to you RE: the VFD I'm using. I will double check next time I'm in the shop - probably tomorrow. IIRC it has a 5 volt, 30ma common for the multi-purpose inputs.

@Singtoe: The machine was originally wired for 3x380+N in wye; much of Brussels including my shop (just edited profile; hadn't remembered to since moving last year) has 3x230 delta. The motor can be wired either way, but the controls would have needed significant revamping to run here, and I had the VFD still kicking around from the little Logan lathe in my old shop. I have the same issue with my Graziano SAG 14 lathe - but there, it makes more sense to rewire a little and replace the control transformer than to try to VFD-ify both the main and coolant pump motors.

The big question is, can I operate tiny reed relays directly off the VFD control loop (especially given its low amperage), or will I need to use larger relays and a separate power supply?
 
IIRC it has a 5 volt, 30ma common for the multi-purpose inputs.

The big question is, can I operate tiny reed relays directly off the VFD control loop (especially given its low amperage), or will I need to use larger relays and a separate power supply?
5V 30 ma sounds like the requirement to control the VFD, it would be about right to operate the LEDs in the VFD's opto-isolators for the control input functions. No problem to control these with any reed relays I am familiar with, they should easily handle 100ma as a minimum.
Question is, do you have a source of 5V at at least 100 ma to operate the relay coils? This is of course assuming that the reeds you want to use have 5V coils.
 
@Rustysparks: yes - I was thinking to run the relays directly from the control circuit; beyond that, I have no other low voltage source on the machine at present, DC or AC, and was hoping to avoid having to add one. Thus my thinking to use micro relays due to extra-low amperage draw...
 
You could use 24VDC coil relays powered by a small, plug in 24VDC 1A switching power supply such as the one you will find by searching for sku PSSE2410N
Or something similar of course.
 
Most VFDs do not supply much control current. In general, they have sufficient capability to operate their own controls and a small amount of external circuitry, but the ones I am familiar with do not supply ehough for most sorts of relay.

I think you should consider an external supply for the controls, and configure tham so that if the control voltage is not present, or if it fails, the VFD does NOT run. Therefore I would NOT advise any sort of mechanical latching relay. I am not sure what you meant by a "holding" relay, mechanical is bad, but an electrical holding system is OK, since it will release if power fails to the controls.
 
@motionguru: Nope, no manual brake (this is a really little machine - similar to the East German DBF, see "DDR-UWG" Multi-Function Machine ... however, I do have the E-stop connected to a fourth input which triggers a hard stop fault on the VFD, and stops the spindle in about 1/3 of a second. That was a nice feature to be able to add.

As for the Graziano, it brakes by reversing the spindle clutch... rough on the clutch plates, but they're built to take it. If at some point I do decide to VFD-ize it, a proper braking resistor setup and at least one additional E-stop trigger beyond the one on the carriage will be in order, even if it's belt and suspenders.

That's some really nice work on your Mori!
 
@JST Definitely electrical holding, for this exact reason! Any power interruption should reset the system to stop.

@Rustysparks I suppose that if a 12v wall wart is sufficient, it would be no big deal to add one to provide power to the relays. And I should have a couple of them kicking around here. :)
 
Easier way get a Invertek Optidrive VFD, they have options to do exactly as u wish with momentary inputs. Some problems are just easier solved by using a compatible VFD more so than a cheaper VFD and buying a load of relays!
 
Aha...

The inverter is an Omron Sysdrive 3G3JV. The common for the multifunction terminals is 24v 8ma (photocoupler) - I'd guess that's nowhere near enough for even a tiny relay.

So, looks like the way forward will be a 24vdc wall wart to drive the controls. Could be worse! :)

And in the meantime, everything except continuous run in reverse works; I can live with that for a little while.
 
Would be nice, but not an option on my shoestring one-trumpetmaker-shop budget, especially since I anyway had the Omron kicking around. :)
 
Aha...

The inverter is an Omron Sysdrive 3G3JV. The common for the multifunction terminals is 24v 8ma (photocoupler) - I'd guess that's nowhere near enough for even a tiny relay.

So, looks like the way forward will be a 24vdc wall wart to drive the controls. Could be worse! :)

And in the meantime, everything except continuous run in reverse works; I can live with that for a little while.

Honestly, just buy one of the 12V DC lighting transformers then, use that to run the relay - control circuit to switch the 24v of the VFD controls. So called signal relays are all you need. Its normally not a good idea to use a seperate supply to try and drive a VFD's inputs, real easy to do bad things to them and there not all optical isolated. Equally using the vfd's control supply to run said relays is also not good and normally you don't have much power spare.

Yeah that omron really does not give you too many input options. The inverter optidrives and some of the other inverters make this kinda swap in VFD installs a lot lot simpler. Can't beat having momentary NVR like actions for forward + reverse then a NC stop circuit for making it easy to integrate into a lot of old machines. Normally the only thing you have to add is a speed control pot, gut all the existing relays and just clean up the panel switch contacts :-)
 








 
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