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Using a vfd on a motor that is not vfd rated

West-7

Aluminum
Joined
May 24, 2019
I have a 10" standard modern lathe with a 3/4 hp 230 3 phase motor that I want to run off 240 single phase

Can I use a vfd? I've been told that since the motor isn't vfd rated it can't be done and I'll need to use a rotary phase converter.





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Data plates for the motors on the lathe and mill I'm planning on taking home.

What are my options other than a rpc?
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I have used VFDs to run many different 3-phase motors designed and built before VFDs were invented, with no problems whatsoever. If there is a risk, it seems rather hypothetical in my experience. These motors include a 1943 Delta 3/4-hp on a drill press, a 1963 English Brooks Crompton 3-hp on my Chipmaster Lathe designed for 50 Hz but run on 60 Hz most of the time, and a fractional-hp motor from the 50s.
 
According to Automation Direct, you can run a standard duty motor on a VFD. The only issue is if you're running at very low speeds it can generate a lot of heat. FWIW I have put a VFD on an ancient Fosdick radial arm drill press (1950's era?) and it has worked fine for the last two years.
 
Reader's Digest version of what the issue is.

In years past, the magnet wire used to make motors was made to handle at least 2x the expected line voltage. With the advent of VFDs, the way they work can create a phenomenon called "reflected waves" or "standing waves" in which the VFD output interacts with the wiring causes brief but repeated "spikes" of voltage that can, in theory, reach 3x the line voltage. The longer the wires are between the VFD and the motor, the worse this becomes but conversely the shorter the wires, the less it is a problem.

But in reality, a motor mfr that makes 230V and 460V rated motors does not use two different ratings of magnet wire, they used one, and it was rated for 1000V because that was more than 2x 460V. A couple of decades ago, many motor mfrs changed to using 1200V insulation in order to have only one supply of magnet wire for when they made 575V motors for Canada. More recently since VFDs are becoming ubiquitous, some motor mfrs just go ahead and use 1600V or even 2000V insulation and keep everything the same. But still, even 1000V is more than 3x the 230V level, so the potential damaging spikes of voltage from a VFD are still well within what the insulation can handle.

There is more to it than that of course and if your motor insulation is already compromised by age, contamination, moisture intrusion etc., using a VFD may accelerate the demise regardless. But what I tell people with 230V motors is that you ALREADY own that motor, so there is no reason to run out and change it prophylactically; just use it as long as you can, THEN if it dies on you, replace it with something else.

If the motor is special and / or hard to change out, then you can consider adding what's called a "dv/dt filter" or even a "sine wave filter" to the output of the VFD. But in many cases on small motors, the filter may equal or exceed the cost of the motor, so you have to weight the risks / rewards.
 
I have a 10" standard modern lathe with a 3/4 hp 230 3 phase motor that I want to run off 240 single phase

Can I use a vfd? I've been told that since the motor isn't vfd rated it can't be done and I'll need to use a rotary phase converter.





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its probably easier to find a 3/4hp motor and just replace it. a VFD is at least $500
 
Reader's Digest version of what the issue is.

I second this answer. Especially with the short motor leads in most machine tools, should be a non-issue. Only time I would be even remotely concerned would be if the motor was absolutely irreplaceable (integrated into the machine frame or something).

(Background - Electrical Engineer with 30 years experience designing VFDs)
 
The motor on the lathe is easy to swap out and I found a replacement baldor 240v motor for $370cdn locally

The other motor is off a excello 602 mill and is a non standard frame and shaft size. I assume it would get expensive if I burnt this one up.


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The voltage spikes from the vfd will most likely not harm a 240 volt motor, but if you jump to 480 volt you could get a voltage break down of the winding's. This is do to the 20kcs pulse of the vfd that is used. I have sold 100s of vfds for 1 to 3 phase conversion, not one has fried the 240 volt motors, but 480 is a differt story. Inverter duty motors have phase insulation between all the coils not just the phases, and better slot isolation and varnish ...Phil
 
Agree with the idea of going ahead. Old motors may actually have insulation that is better placed.

Have not seen an issue using VFDs with 230V motors that start out in decent shape. An old half-dead motor with bad wiring and partly charred (discolored) insulation might be different.

Th 480V motors can also have bearing issues due to capacitive coupling into the rotor leading to bearing currents. 230V seem not to be as susceptible due presumably to lower voltages.

(EE, 10 years designing VFDs)
 
Reader's Digest version of what the issue is.

In years past, the magnet wire used to make motors was made to handle at least 2x the expected line voltage. With the advent of VFDs, the way they work can create a phenomenon called "reflected waves" or "standing waves" in which the VFD output interacts with the wiring causes brief but repeated "spikes" of voltage that can, in theory, reach 3x the line voltage. The longer the wires are between the VFD and the motor, the worse this becomes but conversely the shorter the wires, the less it is a problem.

But in reality, a motor mfr that makes 230V and 460V rated motors does not use two different ratings of magnet wire, they used one, and it was rated for 1000V because that was more than 2x 460V. A couple of decades ago, many motor mfrs changed to using 1200V insulation in order to have only one supply of magnet wire for when they made 575V motors for Canada. More recently since VFDs are becoming ubiquitous, some motor mfrs just go ahead and use 1600V or even 2000V insulation and keep everything the same. But still, even 1000V is more than 3x the 230V level, so the potential damaging spikes of voltage from a VFD are still well within what the insulation can handle.

There is more to it than that of course and if your motor insulation is already compromised by age, contamination, moisture intrusion etc., using a VFD may accelerate the demise regardless. But what I tell people with 230V motors is that you ALREADY own that motor, so there is no reason to run out and change it prophylactically; just use it as long as you can, THEN if it dies on you, replace it with something else.

If the motor is special and / or hard to change out, then you can consider adding what's called a "dv/dt filter" or even a "sine wave filter" to the output of the VFD. But in many cases on small motors, the filter may equal or exceed the cost of the motor, so you have to weight the risks / rewards.

This summary, or some moderately expanded version of it, should become a 'sticky' here in the Xfmr subforum, since this question or versions of it seem to come up fairly often; I think I'd asked a version of the question circa 2013-14....
 
From a motor insulation perspective there are 3 components to the waveform that we are concerned about. The first is the peak voltage - this is affected by the standing waves discussed above. The steady state level is the DC bus voltage but ringing can make the voltage quite high.

The second is the dv/dt of the pulses - basically how fast does the voltage rise. A typical dv/dt rating for a decent modern 480 volt motor would be in the 6,000 volts per microsecond range. Exceeding this can take your motor insulation out - DAMHIK! Using a reactor or dv/dt filter can slow the dv/dt.

The 3rd is the minimum time between negative and positive pulses - typical target is 6 microseconds if I remember correctly. Most people do not pay attention to this rating and most of the time I ignore it too.

With that said I would not hesitate at all using those motors in a shop with short leads on a VFD.
 
I have a 10" standard modern lathe with a 3/4 hp 230 3 phase motor that I want to run off 240 single phase
Can I use a vfd? I've been told that since the motor isn't vfd rated it can't be done and I'll need to use a rotary phase converter.
Sent from my ASUS_X017DA using Tapatalk

Absolutely, you can run that motor with a VFD. If any problems should arise, be aware the motor and/or the VFD will communicate to you that there is a problem using visual and graphic aids. Most times in the form of smoke.
 
If the motor is special and / or hard to change out, then you can consider adding what's called a "dv/dt filter" or even a "sine wave filter" to the output of the VFD. But in many cases on small motors, the filter may equal or exceed the cost of the motor, so you have to weight the risks / rewards.

Special as in 3-speed, constant-HP, Dahlander wound, balanced to 10k RPM in the 50s? yep, that's mine...
I made my own - inductor dV/dT filters are pretty easy to do yourself, I built a set of three from three identical surplus 24v control transformers - warning, there's a bit of maths and a bit more construction involved.

It's easy enough to dismantle an E-I core transformer, to make it useful as an inductor reassemble it with all the I laminations together, all the E laminations together, to allow you to put a PTFE or similar shim between them - this creates a gapped core, less likely to saturate but lower inductance and lower power rating - see below!.

The suggested range of inductance is that it drops 3 - 5% (higher the better for long cables, sensitive motors etc.) of the line voltage at the operating frequency and full load amps - so e.g. 240v line voltage, 3 FLA, 5% drop is 12v, impedance Z of the inductor you want is 4 Ohms (v/I) inductive at 60 Hz - then you calculate the inductance L by Z = 2 Pi f L, to wind the coil on the remains of a transformer and measure. Work back to check your Hard Sums :)

Now multiply the FLA and the dropped voltage to give e.g. 36 VA - now double it if you can to get the VA rating of the transformers you want to start with!


If you get partway through winding and measure it's a lot easier than finishing it off then finding out it's Very Wrong - or wind a prototype coil, measure inductance and work out the turns you require (N.B. inductance is proportional to SQUARE of turns, so if you get half the inductance for e.g. 50 turns, you need root2 times the turns - about 70).

Inductance meters that run from a 9v battery are very cheap from those nice Chinese gents on EvilBay, and accurate enough (that is, not very) for the job in hand :)

Dave H. (the other one)
 
The interesting thing about motor windings is that the bulk of the windings do not "see" the fast high voltage "spikes" or the high dv/dt. The faster the pulse/higher the dv/dt (the higher the "edge frequency" of the pulse), the less inductance it requires to "block", or, better described, to "cut back" the high voltage and "blunt" the pulse.

The result can be that the high voltage appears across fewer turns as the "edge frequency" increases. The "volts per turn of wire" is then higher. That tends to stress the insulation, since a larger voltage appears across fewer turns, and so fewer layers of insulation must withstand the voltage. Each layer is subjected to more voltage.

Older magnet wire may not have as good a coating of insulating varnish on it, and the voltages may cause an arc-through, which will result in a shorted turn after maybe one, or some number of arc-through events.

Providing an external inductor, either a commercial one, or a locally-made version, even the "slice of pipe" core type that Forrest Addy suggested years ago, can reduce the pulses enough to preserve the motor.

The effect of an inductor on a fast pulse is really never to truly "block" it, at any practical inductor value. What really happens is that the peak voltage is reduced, and the pulse is widened, even though the same energy is still present. You could describe that as "blunting" the pulse.

It is as if you had a skinny brick tower, and you knocked it down in such a way that all the bricks came apart from each other and fell in a pile. The pile would be shorter than the original tower, but since the bricks are all still there, the pile would be wider than the tower was.

The "blunted" pulse is not as likely to break down the insulation, so the motor is protected. The trade-off is that the inductor needs good insulation on its wires, so that IT can take the pulse, because the full pulse still hits the inductor.
 








 
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