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What does the term "Phase" refer to?

KPO

Plastic
Joined
Dec 7, 2001
Location
Dearborn, MI
This seems like a great Forum to ask the technical questions.

1. What do they mean by Phase? What's the difference between a single phase and three phase power supply?

2. What is the difference between a Phase Converter and a VFD? Is one better then the other?
 
Phase refers to a time difference between voltages or currents which typically have similar waveforms, and is usually given in degrees of angle.

It is also used to refer to the wires carrying these voltages and or currents. Gets confusing, as in "what is the phase (angle) of the third phase?".

So in single phase, there is one current only, so phase is actually not very relevant. The wires are often referred to as a "phase" anyway. See next def.

Three phase power wiring has three relevant currents, which are nominally 120 degrees apart in angular phase. It is easy to see, hard to explain in words.
But if you imagine 3 sine waves evenly spaced on a horizontal line, so that there are three separate "up loops" on the drawing, and in the fourth position the first line repeats, you have it. The line represents time increasing to the right.

Single phase would have only one sine wave drawn.

The currents and associated wires are also referred to as "phases".

So the first phase, the second, etc, have a "phase (angle) difference of 120 degrees between them, or 360 total, which is why the first one then repeats.

You can see that single-phase has places where it is zero. But with three phase, one or another of them is always near maximum. By imagining the drawing to represent power transfer, you can see why 3 phase is smoother.

To confuse the issue more, single-phase is derived from 3phase, by splitting out a "phase" (wires). So that accounts for some of the duplicate use of the word.

Clear as mud?
 
Very interesting, so if I understand you correctly three phase AC power is actually three separate AC feeds or legs as I have been taught. But each leg (AC sign wave) is offset so that you get three AC peaks of the wave in one cycle. If that's true then what actually is offsetting each AC leg or creating the Phase Angle?

The main power bus over head in our machine shop supplies 440V 3Phase power. The bus was described to me as just a metal enclosure with three long copper conductors running the whole length of the shop. If you need 440V 3Phase for one machine you would just snap in a junction/switch on the buss that contacted all three copper conductors. Also if you need 220V 3Phase you would snap in a junction/switch for 220V that only contacts two of the copper conductors.

I think that all three copper conductors are supplied with 110V Single Phase and all are running at the same frequency so, what device actually offsets the AC sign waves (phase angle)to create 3 phase?

Thanx.
 
The only way to get 240v 3 pahse from 440v 3 phase involves a transformer. 440v 3 pahse has 3 legs of 220v each. If your bus was 240v 3 phase you could tap one leg for normal outlet 120v, 2 legs for 220v " single pahse", or all 3 make 240 3 phase. beware the wild leg on such a system, does a number on 120v appliances.
 
Ok, the phase offset originates from the generator.
The generator windings are set up so that the "phases" are sequentially energized by the field, 120 deg apart. This is a mechanical property, due to the physical position of the windings relative to each other.
The field as it rotates increases the voltage on one "phase" as it approaches it, and it is also moving away from the other phases, so they are decreasing or reversing. Hard to explain in words. There is a motor website that explains it with pics, I will try to find it again.

As far as the voltage, 440 volts wired "star", with windings connected from the phase wires to neutral is also close to 240 volts if the windings are connected from one wire to the next, called "delta" connection. (actually it is 58 percent of the star voltage, or 254 volts)
The voltage difference derives from the relative phase angles. Two adjacent phase wires are closer in voltage than one phase wire is to neutral (ground) due to the 120 degree phase difference vs 180 degrees difference.

So for 240 you can connect to any two wires and get 240 SINGLE-PHASE (or close to 240). That is what your guy meant, probably.

If your motor is wound 3phase delta, it will get about 254 v 3 phase from a 440 star supply.
 
**************HOLD IT RIGHT THERE**************

I see I have explained it exactly backwards in last post. Sorry.

If you just reverse the stars and deltas in my last post, you will get the right explanation.

The voltage BETWEEN phase wires is LARGER than the voltage from phase to ground.

That's why the same motor winding can take 440 when wired star but only 240 when wired delta. I just rewired one, and so I oughta remembered that clearly. Oh well.

If you just graph out the waveforms you will see that clearly.

So to get 240 from 440, you wire between one phase wire and neutral. Your bus duct must have included a neutral bus as well.

And, of course, the phase angle voltage difference reasoning I gave is backwards also, which is how I caught it just as I pushed the send button.

Of course, the 120 degree difference between phases corresponds to MORE voltage than from phase to ground (neutral).
The phase to ground voltage is equal to the voltage between imaginary phases 90 degrees apart.
For phase-to-phase, since 120 degrees is larger than 90, that voltage is equal to the voltage to ground plus the voltage at 30 degrees into the opposite half cycle. Obviously that sum must be larger, and so the phase-to-phase voltage is the larger one.

Must be time to go to sleep now. I am obviously fried.
 
Uh, Jerry, there is an edit function here ya know....you could simply have corrected your incorrect info in the original post.
 
Can you do that AFTER THE FACT? I "woke up" after I already pushed the "submit" button.
 
Wow, thanx for that perfect text book explanation! I now know that the power station generates the three separate phases which must be distributed through three separate circuits (power lines) to all customers that need three phase. I also now know that you can only get 440V 3 phase from the power bus over head in the shop and must use transformers to step it down to 220V 3 phase.

But I could get 110V single phase in the same shop from a different bus with 220V 3 phase. So, the bus with 220V 3 phase must be supplied from a very large transformer some where that is supplied with at least 440V 3 phase. This brings up more questions:

- If the service panel in my home is supplied with 220V single phase does that mean that both 110V feeds have the same "Phase Angle"?

- If you bridge two 110V single phase busses together to make 220V single phase how can I get 220V three phase at home?

- Is it possible to get 110V 3 phase? Is there a use for it?

I have purchased a Lincoln TIG welder for home use and have not set it up yet. The welder is designed to run on 220V single phase (home power supply) but only has a 20% duty cycle at max load (175A out put).

- If I could supply 220V 3 phase power to the TIG welder would the duty cycle increase?
 
never ever pull one leg off for outlets from a 3 phase step down transformer, 3 phase step down transformers are designed to be loaded equally on all 3 legs, you will blow the transformer trying to pull one leg off for outlets. If you have 440 3 phase, you have 1 transformer for outlets and " single pahse", and anotherr transformer for 220v 3 phase. If in doubt, hire an electrician. I believe J Tiers is incorrect, you can't get 240V single phase from a 440v 3 phase bus. 240v single phase is (2) legs of 120v, not 1 leg of 240. It does depend some on the type of power you have, and some lights are designed to be run off of 1 leg of 440v 3 phase direct, but the general rule is transformers are required.
 
I'm slowly building up a home machine shop and I had the funds to get a portable Lincoln TIG 175 welder last month. I'll never attempt to work on any electrical system other then simple home electrical but I would like to under stand it all.

I'm trying to design a electrical system for my garage to support the TIG welder, two additional 220V machines and a host of 110V applications (lights, outlets, etc.). When I'm using the welder there will not be any other 220V machines running. I have a 175A service panel I would like to use as the garage sub panel but I need some wire gage recommendations from there.

- What gage conductors should I run from the main service panel to the garage sub panel? The TIG welder directions state the machine will draw 80A at max load and I will have some 110V applications running at the same time like lights and may be a compressor at times.

- What size braker should supply the sub panel?

- Should I install a separate earth ground for the sub panel?

Should I also run a neutral and ground from the sub panel back to the main service panel if the sub panel has it's own earth ground?


[This message has been edited by KPO (edited 12-14-2001).]
 
KPO,

Here's some ampacity ratings for different sizes of wire.

3/0 copper 200 amps, 3/0 alum. 155 amps

2/0 copper 175 amps, 2/0 alum. 135 amps

1/0 copper 150 amps, 1/0 alum. 120 amps

1ga copper 130 amps, 1 ga alum 100 amps

2ga copper 115 amps. 2 ga alum 90 amps

4ga copper 85 amps, 4ga alum 65 amps

6ga copper 65 amps, 6ga alum 50 amps

Think I will quit here, these numbers from a handy dandy slide rule type chart, they are freebees from electrical suppliers. Good thing to snag onto if you can.

KPO,

I'll add some more, running a sub panel. You do need to run a nuetral, and the nuetral needs to be same size as the hots, the extra ground rod is a subject for debate, check local codes. Often times sub panels aren't grounded, doesn't make sense to me. Personally I'd put in a ground rod if I could. #6 copper from box to ground.

As far as breaker sizes, how many amps do you want to run. I know you have a 175 amp box, but you might have decided that 100 amps is enough. If that is the case use a 100 amp breaker to feed line going to sub, and make sure that any wire coming off any breaker or fuse has the ampacity of that breaker or fuse.

[This message has been edited by halfnut (edited 12-15-2001).]
 
Willeo6709:

Pulling power on one leg of the 3phase will NOT blow the transformer. The power company does it all the time when they power your houses.
What you are thinking of is unbalanced loading. You need to load all three phases similarly, in order to avoid a high neutral current when star loading.
Also, each leg is only capable of 1/3 of the total power, so a 15 KVA transformer will only supply 5KVA per leg long term. And even then it is better to load it evenly, that is spread out the load among the phases when you have single-phase loads.

Also, I never said to load some 220 outlets onto a split-off leg. If you want to do outlets, you should use a transformer the regular way.

All I said is you get that voltage from the connection.

The standard 220 circuit is balanced, i.e. 110-120 each side of neutral. A split-off load is 240 (254) from neutral to phase wire. That's OK for transformers or most specific-purpose motor loads, but not at all cool to do with outlets or in general use. Safety fusing is an issue as well, as far as needed voltage and interrupting ratings, insulation ratings etc, etc.
 
J Tiers:
I apologize if I offended you, but it seems in the end I agree with the combined data in all of your posts. I agree you will get 254 volts from 1 leg to neutral ona 440v 3 phase bus, but for all purposes it is useless unless you have something designed specifically for that voltage. Most shops I have seen have 1 transformer uses only for 3 phase stepping 440/480 down to 220/240, and it is used only for motors, machine tools, etc. to avoid unbalanced loading. There is a separate transformer for outlets and 120V service items. It seems to me that the power comany has a transformer for each leg coming in, eliminating the unbalanced load problem, at least there is on the pole outside my shop. I do not want to start an ongoing argument, I just wanted to make sure KPO does not try something foolish thru misunderstood data, or by what was not said. I am not an electrician, just a toolmaker who knows enough to be dangerous on electricity. Leo
 
Great, thanx for all the help. I have asked for more information then I will actually need but it?s interesting. Seems like I will need to get a copy of my local building codes before I start wiring the garage.

One more question, Would it be advantageous to run any home shop machine on 220V if it has that capacity?
 
KPO,

220-240v is best in that the amperage requirements are half that of 110-120v, thus one can run a larger motor off same size wire and switching apparatus.

Then the convenience factor gets in the way, for example I'm running a couple machines off 110 that could be wired up 220 because I can simply run the cord over to wall outlet and plug them in. But if machine is hardwired in, go 220-240v if power requirements are much at all.

BTW I am refering to voltage as 220 to 240 volts, seems electrical service voltage varies somewhat as to voltage, depends on power company and how they tap transformer. Higher is better for the customer. Lower raises amperage and your meter reads amperage so the power company charges more for the same actual ammount of power.
 
If the line voltage from your Power company is raised, the amperage will also increase since the resistance and/or impedance of an appliance or piece of equipment is a finite value for all practical purposes. Also eletrical meters do not read amperage, they read wattage or voltamps. Wattage is voltamps multiplied by the power factor, so if your equipment is causing a bad power factor, (ideal is unity or 1)and you are metered by a watts meter, the power company takes the hit for it since they have to generate the unmetered portion of power. If you are metered by a voltamp meter, you pay for all the power consumed. If your power factor is poor and is something like .75 it is somewhat like only being able to use 75% of the power you pay for. The other 25% is kind of like negative power...it puts a load on the power companys generators but isn`t useable by the customer.
 
How does 440v 3 phase equate to 254v single phase...how ? well 440 ÷ square root of 3 ( 1.7320508 ) equals 254.
Now that takes me back!
 
The "metal enclosure with three long copper conductors running the whole length of the shop" is a cablebus.

Quite common in older factory installations.

Taps are becomming difficult to obtain for some brands of cablebus.

Cablebus is still being used for large capacity services and feeders, where there are no taps.


Common Wye systems include 120/208, 254/440, 265/460 and 277/480.
 








 
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