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Why are the electrics in this Felder dust collector so complex ? (photos)

Milacron

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Location
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Felder RL125 portable dust collector. It's just a 4 hp 220 volt one speed, one direction, single phase motor turning a fan really. No problems with it, just curious why all the complexity for something so simple ?

The black device on the right has two blue pneumatic lines...and yet there is no pneumatic connection on this model. And believe it or not, there is even more complexity behind the buttons...at least two large capacitors (like half the size of a beer can each) back in there.

My guess is the black device has something to do with monitoring air flow and therefore shutting down the motor if the filter gets too clogged. But all the contactors, a timer and large capacitors ? The capacitors could be for starting/running the single phase motor (rather than having them on the motor) but all the complexity in there makes me wonder if the fan motor isn't really a 3 phase motor and this is Felders method of creating their own little phase jump box inside ? I hope not, since that would mean I don't really have 4 hp. What say ye ?

http://www.felderusa.com/us-us/prod...lean-air-dust-extractor-rl-125--Ø-125-mm.html

It is interesting that in the manual it shows the standard 3 phase model with a simple box mounted on/off rotary switch. So all this complexity for the single phase model is suspect indeed. (FWIW, the single phase version is $200 extra)

felderdust1.jpgfelderdust2.jpgfelderdust3.jpg
 
My guess is thats the circuitry to turn on the unit remotely by opening gates at machines. its an option, according to your website, but I would guess yours has it.
 
My guess is thats the circuitry to turn on the unit remotely by opening gates at machines. its an option, according to your website, but I would guess yours has it.
Well, I thought about that...but there are two things that put a damper in that theory.

1. That option is not available for the RL125, only the larger models
2. When you have that option you have two cords....one for power and one to interface with your machine....i.e. it isn't wireless like on some dust collectors. I have only the one power cord.

==========================================

(on edit) Re no. 1, at least that's what the manual says. But I see on the web spec sheet the automatic option is mentioned for the RL125 sure enough.... nothing in the manual about how to actually use it if you have it...guess I'll have to call Felder tomorrow to see what the deal is.

In looking over the manual more carefully I do see the black thing is sure enough a "differential pressure switch" which apparently activates a yellow warning light to let you know when the filters need cleaning.
 
An alternative view: complex because it was designed by germans. Feel free to
ridicule that comment. But in my years of working on german equipment, and also
having worked for a german-owned company for several years, yes they have a
penchant for putting more under the hood than is really required.

There's a reason we won ww2. It was partly the fact that we could design a
vehicle that had as few moving parts as possible, could be fixed with a rock
and a pair of pliers, and would keep running even when it was falling to pieces.
 
An old issue of Fine Woodworking showed how to control a centralized vacuum system from one control box.

The control box contained a current transformer, which was actually a modified Radio Shack filament transformer, and a fairly simple, and adjustable controller.

One hot lead (240 volt machines) or THE hot lead (120 volt machines) of all loads were passed through the C.T.

When ANY of the load machines was turned on, the vacuum system would also turn on.

The article pointed out that any single-phase load motor powered from Bus A had to be routed through the C.T. in one orientation, whereas any single-phase load motor powered from Bus B had to be routed through the C.T. in the opposite orientation.

Commercial devices are available which do the same.
 
My guess is the black device has something to do with monitoring air flow and therefore shutting down the motor if the filter gets too clogged. But all the contactors, a timer and large capacitors ?

From the RL160 model page:

Compressed air connection for optional automatic cleaning function
We have several large dust collectors that use a timer to control an air burst to blow off the filter bags after the dust collector is shut off. Sounds like this is the same deal, but automatic filter cleaning is not listed for the RL125 model.
 
Given the IEC contactors that have push-in connections, that people HATE in this country, I'd say this was totally designed and built for the EU market, then adapted for use here. There is no such thing as a "4HP" motor, so what it really is going to be is a 3 phase 230V 50Hz IEC motor, probably 7.5 kW (standard size) with a cheap-o phase adder cap system, so the motor gets de-rated to 4HP by the time you factor in the losses from the phase converter and the change to 60Hz from 50Hz. They likely only build one control panel for everything because UL listing is expensive for them, then adapt it for the North American marketplace with the phase adder. When you pay for the options, what you get isjust the instructions on how to connect them and maybe a sensor or two, everything else is always already there in the control system to avoid having to UL List all possible option versions. It's done that way a lot with EU machines, which makes them look overly complicated sometimes.
 
"then adapt it for the North American marketplace with the phase adder. "

Homolgulation I think they call it.

Been there, got the t-shirt.

Leroy Somer motor installed by Famous German Vacuum Company, but they
knew it would be mostly run on 240 volt, so they 'simplified' the start circuit
by using a potential relay and set up so only the main motor windings had to
be changed to swap between 120 and 240. But they never fixed the start
circuit, so the potential relay turned into a relaxation oscillator. Motor would
try to start, start relay would drop out before it came to speed, start relay would
kick in again, ad infinitum.

Eventually the potential relay burns out. The Famous German Company sent me
a replacement start relay. It was a pull-out from a returned pump. It was
*already* burned out.

Called the service folks: "Oh we've NEVER seen the problem you're describing."
The second potential relay: also burned out on arrival.

Our entire group here was actually taken to lunch by the local sales rep because
I showed him how to do the repair to prevent the problem in the first place.
 
Jesus.....Looks like they want to put a P.L.C. on anything these days.

I once was on a "green" forum, these idiots wanted to put a P.L.C. on
a home toilet.....
 
....

S'pose that is why sugar-water is now more expensive than wine, beer, or gasoline...

Bill
But NOT as expensive as the exact same water without the sugar, or flavoring!
The greatest scam going. I can just hear the pitch at the Coca Cola HQ one day years ago...

Pitch man: "I've got an idea boss. How about we take the water that we use to make Coke, but don't add ANYTHING to it, call it something fancy and exotic like "Dasani", and sell it for MORE than we sell the Coke for?"

CEO: "It'll never work, the consumers are not that stupid."

Fast fwd 10 years...

Pitch Man is new CEO... "Ha ha ha ha ha..."
 
And while we're at it could sombody PLEASE explain to me why I can't get a small bottle
of wine from the vending machine here at work, at the end of the day....?

Or a can of beer?
 
And while we're at it could sombody PLEASE explain to me why I can't get a small bottle
of wine from the vending machine here at work, at the end of the day....?

Or a can of beer?
Used to be that way (well, beer anyway) at the local Anheuser-Busch brewery near us, at least when it was first built in the late '70s, and it was FREE!
It's no longer like that though. Too much liability risk I imagine.
 
"...You forgot to buy that air-ticket to Tokyo."

Heh. Up until very recently, having a bottle at work was an instant
firing offense.
 
I am still so curious about this Felder I went to the trouble of taking the connection box apart. Sure looks 3 phase to me. Can anyone make any sense of the data on the motor nameplate ? Could "S1" mean 1 phase (stufe 1) ? Below is some correspondance between me and Felder tech on the subject. As you can see he is convinced the motor is single phase. I'm still not completely convinced. I think it's possible the motor is a 3 phase 3kw (4 hp) motor with a Felder concocted static phase converter. Which means it's actual output may only be 2 hp or even less. Then again no where on the motor data plate do I see a "3" anything, except for the KW.

I did run the "dust extractor" for the first time today and it comes to speed pretty quickly and will "suck the chrome off a Snapon wrench" so maybe it will be fine...but still, I am curious about it.

What do you guys think....is that a 3 phase motor or is it a "special" single phase motor of some sort ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To Felder tech -just wondering what all those contactors and the timer are for ? Seems to me they have to be involved with either automatic start or blast gates or some sort of static phase conversion.....I suspect the latter but you tell me. More photos to follow of the motor .
DT


From Felder tech- I did recieve the photos you sent. This is 100% a single phase machine. There is 2 kontacktors 1k1 and 1ks. And 1f1 is the motor protection switch. 1T1 is your transformer for your start sequence loop (on/off, selector switch, etc.) 2k2 is a time relay for machine.


There is no inclusion of parts but yes the machine can have additional parts added to it for a auto start and/or a blast relay but that part is not in the machine. An auto cleaner in this machine i believe is unavailable.

cheers
B


felderdust4.jpgfelderdust5.jpg
 
I think I have the motor end of the mystery finally figured out. The "1~" on the data plate does indicate the motor is single phase. The two extra wires (blue wire and one of the other three wires on right side) are probably connections from the remote start/run capacitors.

I presume the extra contactor and delay timer have something to do with the remote start capacitor but this begs the question how do standard USA single phase motors work without need of same ?

Most important, at least I know now I am probably getting a full 3 kw of motor output and not the 1.5 kw or less I would have got if it was a 3 phase motor running on single phase power.
 
"...how do standard USA single phase motors work without need of same ?"

Centrifugal switch, that brings a start capacitor to the start windings on the stator,
typically.

In the example I gave above, they used a potential relay to remove the start
circuit once the motor is up to speed.

In the case of a dual voltage motor with centrifugal switch, the start winding/start
capacitor is put across the paralleled run windings for 120 volt service.

When run on 240, the run windings are in series, and the start winding, which
is really set up for 120 volts, has one end tied to the centertap on the seriesed
run windings, providing it with a close approximation of 120 volts. This is one
reason that those motors are simpler to wire up for reversing service if run on 240.
 
"S1" is the duty cycle of the motor. We don't really have an equivalent rating system in the US. S1 is rated for continuous operation, but all IEC motors should be considered to be a 1.0 Service Factor, i.e. no fudge in the fudge factor ...

S1 Continuous duty. The motor works at a constant load for enough time to reach temperature equilibrium.
S2 Short-time duty. The motor works at a constant load, but not long enough to reach temperature equilibrium. The rest periods are long enough for the motor to reach ambient temperature.
S3 Intermittent periodic duty. Sequential, identical run and rest cycles with constant load. Temperature equilibrium is never reached. Starting current has little effect on temperature rise.
S4 Intermittent periodic duty with starting. Sequential, identical start, run and rest cycles with constant load. Temperature equilibrium is not reached, but starting current affects temperature rise.
S5 Intermittent periodic duty with electric braking. Sequential, identical cycles of starting, running at constant load and running with no load. No rest periods.
S6 Continuous operation with intermittent load. Sequential, identical cycles of running with constant load and running with no load. No rest periods.
S7 Continuous operation with electric braking. Sequential identical cycles of starting, running at constant load and electric braking. No rest periods.
S8 Continuous operation with periodic changes in load and speed. Sequential, identical duty cycles run at constant load and given speed, then run at other constant loads and speeds. No rest periods.
 
But NOT as expensive as the exact same water without the sugar, or flavoring!
The greatest scam going. I can just hear the pitch at the Coca Cola HQ one day years ago...

Pitch man: "I've got an idea boss. How about we take the water that we use to make Coke, but don't add ANYTHING to it, call it something fancy and exotic like "Dasani", and sell it for MORE than we sell the Coke for?"

CEO: "It'll never work, the consumers are not that stupid."

Fast fwd 10 years...

Pitch Man is new CEO... "Ha ha ha ha ha..."
Yeah, I've thought the exact same thing before. Bottled water was a valid concept but never understood why it cost so damn much and that so many folks were happily willing to pay the price. (although by the case in grocery stores it is less than soft drinks if not a fancy brand) Sure, I'd pay 50 cents for a cold bottle of water....but $1.50+ ??? Give me a break.

The funny part is in the past where I was at airport or wherever there was no tap water possible and desperate for a drink I'd tend to order a diet Coke or similar just because the bottled water seemed like such a ripoff for the reasons you mention. And yet really the water would have been better for me as the diet Coke has zero nutritional value and some negative aspects the water would not have.

Which reminds me of yet something else kinda funny...many years ago seeing a "value expert" on TV talking about how you should order your soft drinks without ice and then showing how you get way more of the actual drink if there is no ice. The funny part being that getting less of the drink would be a good thing, not a bad thing, since you really shouldn't be drinking that crap in the first place and it's really the ice that is good for you, not the soft drink !

As an aside, Consumer reports did comparison tests of bottled water years ago and reported that the best tasting and excellent quality water was New York City tap water !
 








 
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