wiring a 1 phase shop for future 3 phase

madmachinst · Sep 12, 2018

I have 4 lead 4/0 wire outside my shop almost all the way to my power pole which has 3 phase running down the street. Currently I want to get things going quick and dirty like with residential 220. All I have is a Manual mill, lathe, compressor and a 3 hp BP CNC ( VFD spindle), everything that can run on residential. In the future when I get settled I wanna pull 3 phase. I was thinking besides pulling 4 lead wire to where the big boys will be how about using a 3-phase Siemens S3054B3200 200-Amp Indoor Main Breaker 30 Space, 54 Circuit Load Center. Just leave one of the phases empty. What Reasons can anybody come up with not to do that?

Thanks

sfriedberg · Sep 12, 2018

You should really consult your local power utility before making any plans. They may or may not be willing to change a single-phase service to a three-phase service that feeds an existing panel. And they probably don't care what wire you run as they are going to run their own wire to the service location, and charge you for the job.

Having said that, I'd recommend having separate single-phase and three-phase panels. If you do run everything off a partially-populated three-phase panel, you are going to want a lot more than 30 spaces. Buy a 60-space or larger panel. Or buy separate single-phase and three-phase panels.

Mark Rand · Sep 12, 2018

my home workshop is wired with a 3 phase Square-D panel and 4 core+ground cable back to the house. I had planned on getting 3 phase power to the shed, but it hasn't happened yet. In the meantime, all the mains power is fed through one phase (UK tends to star instead of delta/wye) and works perfectly fine. The 3 phase machines are currently fed directly from a 23kVA inverter.

SAF · Sep 13, 2018

I would suggest putting in a wiring trough with your 3Φ feeder. Make it long enough for 2 loadcenters, and provide 3 hole insulated tap connectors in the trough. One set of holes for the feed, one set for a single phase panel, and one set for a future 3Φ panel.

For the 1Φ loadcenter get a full 42CKT unit, not a 30/54. 30CKT (full 1" spaces) will get used up quickly with lights and plugs, 12 more CKTs don't cost much more. 1/2 sizes breakers cost more and full spaces are required for multipole breakers.

Here's a sample, one panel installed, space and taps for a second one.

SAF Ω

Pathogen · Sep 13, 2018

Check with the utility to see if it is really 3 phase or if the 3rd leg is separately derived. In the Pensacola area I smoked too many motors using the separately derived.

I agree too that your plans aren't their plans. Investigate power quality, availability, and costs.

Oversize your conductors and don't downsize your neutral.

madmachinst · Sep 13, 2018

Pathogen said:
Check with the utility to see if it is really 3 phase or if the 3rd leg is separately derived. In the Pensacola area I smoked too many motors using the separately derived.

I agree too that your plans aren't their plans. Investigate power quality, availability, and costs.

Oversize your conductors and don't downsize your neutral.

by separately derived you mean they just play around with transformers to make a 3rd phase. Anyways 2 house down from my place there is an old timer 2 4axis Haas's 5 BP's 3 engine lathes etc etc. I think that 3 phase is meant for us boys.

neilho · Sep 14, 2018

I have separate 3 and single phase panels in the shop, but that's just the way it happened. No opinion as to how you should do it, there are good arguments for both sides.

While you're wiring the shop, run 4 wires to every 220 outlet and use your favorite 4 contact outlet. Then the circuit can be used for single phase or 3 phase as you choose or as things develop. It works and conforms to code. The point is to save extra wiring now and rewiring later.

thermite · Sep 14, 2018

madmachinst said:
I have 4 lead 4/0 wire outside my shop almost all the way to my power pole which has 3 phase running down the street. Currently I want to get things going quick and dirty like with residential 220. All I have is a Manual mill, lathe, compressor and a 3 hp BP CNC ( VFD spindle), everything that can run on residential. In the future when I get settled I wanna pull 3 phase. I was thinking besides pulling 4 lead wire to where the big boys will be how about using a 3-phase Siemens S3054B3200 200-Amp Indoor Main Breaker 30 Space, 54 Circuit Load Center. Just leave one of the phases empty. What Reasons can anybody come up with not to do that?

Thanks

Reasons? "All of them", actually.

Even if "quick and dirty" turns into five-plus years instead of five-minus months, better-off to run what you need, 1-P, only. Do it well, make it removable with use of surface mount load centers and conduit. SQ D's "QO" line my go-to.

Do the 3-P from a clean-sheet to meet THEN current needs, if/as/WHEN (ever..) it comes.
Doesn't sound as if you even NEED it, and the 3-P billing tariff is always a negative, never a plus.

2C, 1 RPC, and 2 Phase-Perfect worth.

100% of the 3-P is easily "portable". Eaton Cutler-Hammer load centers on those ones - partly for the visual KLEW as to which is wot Grey SQ-D=1-P. Tan Eaton=3-P.

Not exactly "featherweight", what with one 27 KVA Delta-Wye drive isolation transformer already here, one more for-sure, two maybe left to add. Some among us just don't DO corner-grounded Delta.

Regardless. Anything above and beyond decent code-compliant "residential" single-phase practice can be unwelcome in future. My Widow / Estate Executor will find it easier to sell this place at a decent price if it can all be readily rolled-away with minimal cost.

*I* will find it easier to relocate the "goodies" to a lower tax environment, I should live so long and still give a taxatwoshits - nigh-on 30 years in this house or not.

madmachinst · Sep 17, 2018

so basically I will go with this,
Siemens S2B11P 2 Space 2 Circuit 1 Amp Main Breaker Indoor Load Center Value Pack - - Amazon.com
surface mount it and when the time comes will remove it then route out a opening in my paneling and install the 3 phase main breaker panel. I just hate doing things twice. Then current needs will another engine lathe, surface grinder, and a VMC in addition to the 2 BPs I already have.

thermite · Sep 17, 2018

madmachinst said:
so basically I will go with this,
Siemens S22B11P 2 Space 2 Circuit 1 Amp Main Breaker Indoor Load Center Value Pack - - Amazon.com
surface mount it and when the time comes will remove it then route out a opening in my paneling and install the 3 phase main breaker panel. I just hate doing things twice. Then current needs will another engine lathe, surface grinder, and a VMC in addition to the 2 BPs I already have.

USA, you may find futures SIMPLER if you make that a Square-D, "QO" panel.

Even Big Box have them on the shelf, in depth, breakers, lugs, "Al-CU" and dual-wire rated breakers, you-name options to Just Fit. eBay "remaindermen" have a short TON of them NOS, all types and size, in-depth, any given day, as-do any electrical distributors in America... and not-only.

Electricians and inspectors are comfortable with them as well-known goods, too.

Siemens is nuthin' special. Surely NOT with f*****g ALUMINUM BUS BARS!

Not since it was "Siemens und Halske", if running off War Two slave-labour was somehow more "special" than being Putin's butt-boys, current-era.

madmachinst · Sep 17, 2018

Got links to any similar products. I need it to be small cause remember its temporary.

thermite · Sep 17, 2018

madmachinst said:
Got links to any similar products. I need it to be small cause remember its temporary.

"Small you need?

New, unpopulated. mostly:

eBay - Page Not Found

Used, populated:

Square D Electric QO Load Center with Breakers | eBay

Smarter, IMNSHO:

Square D QO Main Lug Neutral Load Center Cover 125A 24 Circuit Indoor Ground Bar 68978111728 | eBay

SQ-D, breakers, other parts for it is everywhere. Just AVOID like a dose of the clap their "Homeline" s**t. Use "QO" AKA "Quick Open".

neilho · Sep 18, 2018

Homeline. Ugh.

I like QO breakers, too, but have also used the GE gold line boxes. Quite a bit cheaper ($90 vs $140 or so), and the box is galvanized. Longer life in occasionally humid locations.

If yer going for cheap, shop used, for sure. There's a spare 100A panel single phase panel here in storage that could be had. Think it's a Crouse Hinds or some such.

madmachinst · Sep 18, 2018

Thanks guys. by small I mean 15 spaces. I only need 4 double pole breakers. I see now why you want QO as they have been around and proven for a long time. I guess I'll get a 20 space box and sell it when I no longer need it. I'll just hold on to the breakers when its time for a 3 phase box.

thermite · Sep 18, 2018

madmachinst said:
Thanks guys. by small I mean 15 spaces. I only need 4 double pole breakers. I see now why you want QO as they have been around and proven for a long time. I guess I'll get a 20 space box and sell it when I no longer need it. I'll just hold on to the breakers when its time for a 3 phase box.

Some of my "Hell Box" QO breakers are in their fifth house. One tends to "juggle" the ratings according to what it takes to best serve the wire plant and loads, and the changes one makes to it. Standardizing in my family on "QO" has made all changes since faster, easier, less-costly, and lower risk.

I've only ever had to rip-out some other brand of panel 3 times since adulthood, (one GE-Bryant, two FPE) but that is the first thing I had learned to do - or Dad before me, Inspector, Senior Inspector, etc....etc => Resident Engineer, NACA Full Scale Wind Tunnel, 1931 to Corps of Engineers 1936, retiring 1967.

Are Square-D "perfect"? No Fine Way! Critical telco or IS/IT goods design? I generally used faster-yet Heinemann magnetics or magnetic/hydraulics. Eaton (Cutler-Hammer) own them, present-day, much as Schneider bought Square-D ages ago. Horses for courses.

OTOH, Square-D QO have never wasted a single dime of my money, nor ten minutes of my time, either. Au Contraire, their full re-usability has saved me time and money on panels, their guts, as well as breakers (and BIG fuses in disconnects as well)

Still waiting for the FOURTH OQ breaker to fail, mid-1950's to present day, and I may very well punch out before the next QO does.

I'm good with that. Got OTHER fish to electrocute, after all!

And Oh, BTW, in case I've somehow failed to mention it? Square-D "Homeline" sucks Calcutta fermented sewage up its cheap ass. AVOID those ones!

About the only thing WORSE might be a Siemens GREEDY enough to equip with shiney-wood bus-bars, and ARROGANT DUMB enough to actually brag about that and expect fools to think it a "good idea"!

madmachinst · Sep 19, 2018

what if I wanted to get a an RPC, you think it would then be wise of me to utilize a 3 phase main breaker panel ( QO of course). I could just use a 1Phase double pole breaker for the RPC. My biggest 3 phase item now is 4HP so say a 6hp RPC. I know about not using the wild leg to run computers.

Do you need special QO single pole breakers if used in a 3phase panel?

thermite · Sep 19, 2018

madmachinst said:
what if I wanted to get a an RPC, you think it would then be wise of me to utilize a 3 phase main breaker panel ( QO of course). I could just use a 1Phase double pole breaker for the RPC. My biggest 3 phase item now is 4HP so say a 6hp RPC. I know about not using the wild leg to run computers.

Do you need special QO single pole breakers if used in a 3phase panel?

No, you want 3-Pole "common trip" breakers for 3-Phase loads.

Do not try to "gang" 3 X 1-pole. Do not buy pre-pinned or clip-ganged ones. Get the proper unitary ones. You need very few, and they last a really, really long time.

Any single-phase should come off the panel connected to the mains, not off the RPC. Even though in theory your RPC or a Phase-Perfect can supply 1-P, leg-to-leg, an RPC, Phase-Perfect, (or VFD) output is floating Delta until you corner-ground it. That means not all three legs are the same with respect to ground.

Far worse, you do not OWN a proper "Neutral" to utilize for 120 VAC service and MUST NOT use ground for that.

Use a 240 VAC to 120 VAC, "control" transformer in the machine if you NEED 120 VAC (or 24 VAC, or. or. or..) not from the mains 1-P panel.

ELSE - as I am doing - feed the entire output through a Delta-Wye transformer and re-derive a local neutral, output side, for "five wire" service outlets. Those are the 3 legs, a local Neutral, and Protective Earth AKA "ground".

All three legs are commercial-3-P power-good off the Phase-Perfects. Those off the RPC, the "generated leg" should still be identified and avoided for controls, relay/contactor & "magnetic starter" coils, DRO or CNC electronics, task lighting, coolant pumps, & such, isolation transformer notwithstanding.

One Delta-Wye already here, (EGS/Hevi-Duty 27 KVA) two more to go, and it looks as if I will have spent about $700 to $900 per-each, even with bargain-hunting, as the freight alone is running above $230 each.

FWIW-not-much, the loadcenters I use ARE rated for corner-grounded Delta. My personal preferences are not that tolerant. Hence the spend.

3CW

madmachinst · Sep 20, 2018

thermite said:
No, you want 3-Pole "common trip" breakers for 3-Phase loads.

Do not try to "gang" 3 X 1-pole. Do not buy pre-pinned or clip-ganged ones. Get the proper unitary ones. You need very few, and they last a really, really long time.

Any single-phase should come off the panel connected to the mains, not off the RPC. Even though in theory your RPC or a Phase-Perfect can supply 1-P, leg-to-leg, an RPC, Phase-Perfect, (or VFD) output is floating Delta until you corner-ground it. That means not all three legs are the same with respect to ground.

Far worse, you do not OWN a proper "Neutral" to utilize for 120 VAC service and MUST NOT use ground for that.

Use a 240 VAC to 120 VAC, "control" transformer in the machine if you NEED 120 VAC (or 24 VAC, or. or. or..) not from the mains 1-P panel.

ELSE - as I am doing - feed the entire output through a Delta-Wye transformer and re-derive a local neutral, output side, for "five wire" service outlets. Those are the 3 legs, a local Neutral, and Protective Earth AKA "ground".

All three legs are commercial-3-P power-good off the Phase-Perfects. Those off the RPC, the "generated leg" should still be identified and avoided for controls, relay/contactor & "magnetic starter" coils, DRO or CNC electronics, task lighting, coolant pumps, & such, isolation transformer notwithstanding.

One Delta-Wye already here, (EGS/Hevi-Duty 27 KVA) two more to go, and it looks as if I will have spent about $700 to $900 per-each, even with bargain-hunting, as the freight alone is running above $230 each.

FWIW-not-much, the loadcenters I use ARE rated for corner-grounded Delta. My personal preferences are not that tolerant. Hence the spend.

3CW

I was asking if I can use regular 1 pole breakers in a 3 phase QO panel for 120 usage. The live bus in a 3 phase on a QO looks like you need a special breaker for each different phase which means PITA for say 4 double pole breakers one after the other.

woodsrider845 · Sep 20, 2018

Depending on your needs, a single panel will be fine.

Think about where you would place machines, and run appropriate wires to said locations.
My head hurts from reading some of this shit. How about we just answer questions, without doling out life stories and bullshit? Huh? Yeah? Can we do that?

Some of this shit is what homeless guys do when I happen to say hello.....

thermite · Sep 20, 2018

woodsrider845 said:
Depending on your needs, a single panel will be fine.

Think about where you would place machines, and run appropriate wires to said locations.
My head hurts from reading some of this shit. How about we just answer questions, without doling out life stories and bullshit? Huh? Yeah? Can we do that?

Some of this shit is what homeless guys do when I happen to say hello.....

Stop saying "hello" with an agenda. Learn to discern the difference between what you casually class as "bullshit" and Best Current Practice?

Your head won't hurt so often.

Mixing 1-P and 3-Phase in a single panel?

Yes. Of course.

Safer if you start with 3-P Wye as your source.

OP has to "make" his 3-P. Many of us do.

RPC, Phase-Perfect, VFD are not inherently Wye sources.

Even so, that isn't a big deal. What is a "big deal" is that those all have specific power limits, too.

Why eat-into those expensive budgets when there is PLENTY of cheaper to provision 1-P power "right there" where it was itself served from off a cheaper panel and breaker family that offsets separate box costs several times over?

Just Deal With That per NFPA 70, yah?

It is still a tad under 1,000 pages. I'm no "speed reader". Just high retention percentage. Takes a full day to read the entirety of that.

Wouldn't even have the time, were it not for PM's "ignore f**kwits" function.

wiring a 1 phase shop for future 3 phase

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