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Best CNC for woodwork

M. Moore

Titanium
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Location
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
I have been thinking about breaking down and moving into the 20th century and buying a cnc machine.

Anyone out there have some recommendations?

I am not looking to go real big, that might come later, 4'x4' would suit me fine right now.

Michael
 
You are asking a very vague question, it depends greatly on what you want to do. There are as many different and specialized wood cutting machines as metal cutting. I am going to assume that you are looking at router type cnc, but there are cnc panel saws, drilling, boring, dowel inserting etc.

So, still assuming that you are talking routers, I would never consider anything smaller than a 4x8 table, you will be hamstringing yourself until you get rid of it and buy a 4x8 capacity machine. I would also get a tool changer. anymore than that and we will need to have more input to help as I can only tell you what I want to buy for what I do.

jason
 
Yes, McGyver you are correct, router for general work.

I do one off or limited production. I often need curved templates so I can make
shaper jigs. I might even use it for routing aluminum as I do fabricate with that a bit too.

You are probably right about the size issue, however all of my work so far would fit on a 4x4 table.

I will post a pic of some chair backs that I subbed out.

Michael
 
Michael, if you want to cut non ferrous metals too, you will probably want more than a porter cable hand router on a 80/20 extruded aluminum frame machine. Budget is probably going to be the variable that defines what you can get. I would look at the cnc section here and there are alot of threads asking this same thing just for metal cutting. Look these up, they will have the pros and cons of buying new vs used, that will help you quite a bit to determine if you can handle a used machine that may not have the same support etc the new ones have. Have you used a cnc before?

I have my own opinion on what is acceptable for a router because of my experience with them and I know what I will be using one for. I really do not know the market for the smaller machines, but I would narrow them down by Service, Quality of machine, and the capacity.
 
I have not programmed and run a cnc before.
I have had a number of projects done by cnc with various levels of input from me.

This is not a high production environment, speed is not an issue, I can do other things while waiting if necessary.
Simple to use is a high priority. I like computers but sometimes I am challenged.

Michael
 
I may not be much help to you, I have alot of experience with the higher end machines and software, but very little with any intro level machines. I use mastercam to program fanuc and osai controls most recently, but I have used the Busellato conversational control up until 5 years ago. It was easy to program simple parts and you could make parametric programs for similar parts that allowed you to input a few variables and it would adjust the program to fit the new size of blank. This machine typically ran cabinet parts and was very good at it when it ran. This machine seemed to be much easier to learn for new people, i came from a machine shop background with g code etc and it took me longer to understand what it wanted to know, once i did it was very easy and you did not need cam software to program it.
I have been around an axyz (sp) router that the local school had and it seemed to be a good machine for what they wanted to do. It came with a software package that you drew your part features with different colors and the toolpath info was tied to the color of the geometry. It was too vague and uncontrollable for my liking. This specific router was 4x4 and did not have a tool changer, I would be very frustrated without a tool changer.
A customer of mine has a 4x8 techno with a tool changer for quite a few years and has made alot of parts with it. I have heard good things about them as far as reliability and they are popular enough that mastercam has a generic techno post that you can use. they are not going to compare with the $100,000 machines, but they will get it done from what I understand.

Look at some of the used dealers online to get and idea of all the different brands out there and that will give you a starting point to researching the brands and styles.
 
IMO, one of the most important things in a CNC is the controller. Most of the lower end hobby CNC machines use Machx controls because they're inexpensive. For the ornamental type work I like to do a low end control just won't do it (easily).

Attached are a couple pictures of recent things I've done (I'll post some better examples when I find the pics). The programs for both parts are fairly short, 50 or so lines of code. Just a few parameter changes and the whole look of the part can be changed.

The wood part is fluted hemispherical dome cut with a 1/4", 2 flute, ball end mill with a climb cut. The metal part was press formed in an acrylic die made with the same cutter.

To do these parts easily my control needed axis rotation, repeat, scaling, sub-routine and macro capability. Without those options these parts would have taken mega-byte programs that are not modifiable or easy to program, in addition you need a fairy high end CAD/CAM program (expensive). You won't find these features in an older or low end control.

I programmed the parts directly, no CAD/CAM, at the machine using graphical toolpath verification as I was programming to assure I was getting the desired result.

View attachment 63699View attachment 63700

All you really need is a $1000.00 CAM. You can use almost any control to do those parts. Mach like most controls uses Gcode and uses a pentium to do it so it is light years faster than Fanuc...which is funny because Mach 3 is only a $200 program. It is limited to your port speed like 45K steps per second. Take a 5 axis machine and with a stepper or servo you can run each encoder at 9000 steps per second or contour at 270IPM simultaneously with a 2000 line encoder. This is on the low end. Mach is capable of 5 axis at 600IPM simultaneous speed with the right setup. It is without a doubt the most bang for the buck ever made so far. As far as blocks per second think in the tens of thousands. There was a control out there called numerx and numatix that used the same type of achitecture as Mach 3 and a simple Pentium 1 that blew away every machine tool of its time...in fact I still dont know of anything faster out there.
 
I'm a recently retired teacher, but for the last six or seven years I used a 4' X 8' Techno CNC router in my classes at school. I used it mostly to produce jigs and fixtures for building ukuleles, guitars, and dulcimers. But I also used it for many other things, like cutting pearl and abalone inlays, custom rosettes, carving necks, building furniture of all sorts, cutting fret slots and fret boards for instruments, carving signs, etc., etc. I cut lots of patterns from MDF that were then used to cut parts using a shaper or hand held router. It used the big Porter Cable router and DID NOT have a tool changer.
I had lots of manual machining experience, but no cnc experience when I got the Techno. I used Mastercam to draw and do toolpaths. (Slow learning curve, but I was pretty proficient after a year or two.)
I too, have thought about buying a cnc router for myself. The Techno was a pretty sweet machine, very accurate. Never had to have any service in the time I used it. Pretty rock solid, in my opinion. I could draw a pattern for a shell inlay, cut the shell, take the original drawing and Xform Offset Contour .002", cut the pocket and drop the shell in. Laguna Tools has some nice looking machines too, but I don't know anyone who has used them.
Ninety-nine prcent of the parts I cut would fit on a 2' X 2' table, but then there were the custom headboards that were over 6', and so on. If I ever buy one for myself, it will be a 4' X 8' and it will have a tool changer, at least three tools. MasterCam would be my preferred CAD/CAM simply because that's what I know, but it is really expensive. I'm sure there are less expensive CAD/CAMs that will do the job. If you do cabinet parts, a vacuum table would be nice. I did not have that option at school, so used double stick tape or custom built holdowns for everything.
Hope something in all this rambling helps,
Barron
 
Thanks for the replies,

Barron, I will have a look at the Techno machines.

Doug, there is no tape measure but those look like they would fit on a 4'x4' table.... :D

Speedie, good name for you, way above my level of understanding....


Ok, keep it coming!

Michael
 
Micheal,
You may also want to look at ShopSabre. They are an entry level machine, but made in the US. I have no hands-on experience with them, but I have recently had a Techno (LC Series) and a shop sabre quoted with identical options. The ShopSabre was a little better price. However, Techno has been around much longer.
The ShopSabre appears to be a well made machine when compared to the other entry level brands. My only concern is that they haven't been around too long, so it's been difficult to get feedback from other ShopSabre owners.

I haven't made a decision yet, because my business slowed up here at the end of the year, so I'm going to delay the purchase for a few months.

btm
 
FWIW, I have a 2011 SNX Komo as per link below that is essentially new with 42 hours on the meter....cost about $65,000 new, sell mine for $42,000. Cool thing about it is the Milltronics 7200 control....that way you have a proper industrial control and aren't joined at the hip to the router manufacturer for future service. I never cease to be amazed at all the CNC routers out there that don't even mention what control they use.. apparently most woodworkers are too inexperienced in such matters to care. In my search for a CNC router under $100,000 I found only two that used proper controls that were independent of the router manufacturer ...this one, and the Patriot*, which uses a Fagor control. Patriot is lighter duty than the SNX Komo however and doesn't offer a rotary tool changer or HSK tooling.

The larger Komo's use Fanuc controls but those puppies are over $100K. Onsrud will use a Fanuc if you request one, but here again well over $100K.

SNX Technologies

860.jpg


* http://cncpd.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Patriot4x2A.jpg
 
That SNX looks good however it is just a bit above my budget.

Can you elaborate on the joined at the hip comment?
If there is a problem the you will be paying someone to fix things? Why does it matter who it is?

I will be looking at a used machine this week, anyone know about the Mach3 software?


Btm, I will have a look at the shops are site.

Michael
 
What he means by joined at the hip, is that if you buy a router that has a proprietary control package on it, you are not going to find anyone else that can or will work on it when you need it. In other words if they built the control, you probably can't buy a part off a shelf for it or get any help from the general woodworking public. Also, OEM parts are extremely expensive compared to off the shelf. A Fanuc control is very common and there are many many people out there that can be asked for help, whether you are paying or not.

If you have a choice, you should prefer to buy a machine with a more common control on it so that you can get independent techs to work on it or best case, you can ask on here to see if someone can help you possibly for free. It can be the difference in paying $1000 per day min for an OEM tech to show up just to look at your problem and an independent guy that will likely be as qualified or better for less money.

I do not know much about mach3 other than it has alot of users in the lower priced realm and have heard both good and bad about it. Good is that it is cheap and can do quite a bit and you can customize it to the Nth degree, the bad; it is PC based and all the quirks you have with your home PC, you will have with the router too since that is what is running it.

I strongly suggest that you talk to the machine builder about getting a service and training package on the machine that you get. The thing that I have seen too many new guys do is to buy a machine and then it sets most of the time because they do not have the time to really learn what it can do for them, they are usually too busy and just don't get to do it right. So, the machine sets idle alot and doesn't pay you back. Two biggest reasons are that they don't truly know the capabilities of the machine/software and they don't know how to make it (machine/software) do the job if they do know what it can do.
So, make sure that you check and see what kind of service you can get for the machine and training on it and the software. If you cannot afford this up front, you will pay for it many times over the time you have the machine. If you are looking at used machines too, the manufacturer of the router should still be able to provide this on a used machine. If you don't like what you find there, see what is offered at local tech schools or even be willing to travel to a class. There may also be a independent tech willing to come to you to get you up and running.

I just realized you are up North, not sure if there are any differences other than the market may not be as big?

Jason
 
What he means by joined at the hip, is that if you buy a router that has a proprietary control package on it, you are not going to find anyone else that can or will work on it when you need it. In other words if they built the control, you probably can't buy a part off a shelf for it or get any help from the general woodworking public. Also, OEM parts are extremely expensive compared to off the shelf. A Fanuc control is very common and there are many many people out there that can be asked for help, whether you are paying or not.

If you have a choice, you should prefer to buy a machine with a more common control on it so that you can get independent techs to work on it or best case, you can ask on here to see if someone can help you possibly for free.
You got it. Even worse, I would worry some of the smaller manufacturers might flat out go out of business at some point and then you would really be SOL. Even if Milltronics went out of business there are so many of them in the field someone would buy the control business and keep up repairs and parts for another decade or two...like with Fadal. If Techno, ShopSabre or Laguna, etc, etc went belly up you would most likely be SOL on future control service.
 
Having some idea of your budget would help, as others have mentioned there is a pretty wide range of capabilities and cost. I have some experience with two different Shopbot brand machines, and have been pleased. These have both been in a school setting and they are fairly easy to learn to use. The customer service folks are really nice. (at the location when we bought the first one, we had a fair number of self induced problems) I recently set up another machine and that has gone real smooth. The directions are pretty good and a couple of my HS students did the assembly. If nothing check out their website and forum it might give you some ideas.
 
There is a local ad for a Precix machine. I think it is a 2005 model, no specs on it yet except the table size, 5x10. It is listed under ten K, does anyone have experience with these machines?

It looks like a basic model, no tool changer etc. it is bigger than I wanted but bigger is better as they say!

BTW, all the help is much appreciated an I know it was kind of a vague question but the responses so far have been very helpful.

Michael
 
There is a local ad for a Precix machine. I think it is a 2005 model, no specs on it yet except the table size, 5x10. It is listed under ten K, does anyone have experience with these machines?

It looks like a basic model, no tool changer etc. it is bigger than I wanted but bigger is better as they say!

BTW, all the help is much appreciated an I know it was kind of a vague question but the responses so far have been very helpful.
Wow..yet another make I've never heard of. Current versions seem to be all servo at least. Amazingly lame info on the controller...don't even show a photo of the controller "on"....also funny in nearly 2013 to show it with a CRT for monitor. Might be ok though...just need more details...like does it have proper Italian spindle motor or do you just strap in a hand router ? That sort of thing. Basic but large hints at sign maker usage.
 
These are made (or assembled) in Vancouver B.C.
The spindle on this one is 5 hp, it has a vacuum table but no pump.
Here is the link if you want to have a look. Used stuff in Victoria for sale - UsedVictoria.com - buy and sell free classified ads

It seems a bit more than just a sign maker, but still light duty.

I do like the fact that it is a local ( sort of) machine, albeit a ferry ride away.

Anybody use one?

Michael
 
Doug,
Thanks for the feedback on that particular machine.
I am comfortable with the vacuum table and could adapt on top of that for other work. I noticed the Z axis was a bit short and wondered if the spindle could be raised.
The chair backs would fit on this machine, not sure if it can do three axis contouring, but I can't see why it wouldn't? Are there some control systems that can't move the Z axis when the xy are being used? Or is there some other reason?

Michael
ps, haven't heard back from the seller
 
My impression of the machine you linked to is it has too little height under the spindle, Z axis, to do much more than surface work on sheet goods.
Yep, signmaker special and probably joined at hip to manufacturer for all future electronic/software fixes and updates.
 








 
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