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Davis and Wells

johnl

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Location
Memphis Tn
Long story.
Back in the early 50s pop bought out a bankrupt cabinet shop. Among the items in it was a Davis and Wells 12" table saw, and a 6 " Davis and Wells jointer. I estimate from the serial numbers the manufacture date to be 1935-36. He used them off and on while I was growing up, and then when he died, I got them. I have not used them much, but they have seen periods of regular use.

A couple of years ago, I decided to replace the drive belts on both the saw and jointer, as they were very worn and ragged (probably been on there since 1940s. After taking the belts off, I noticed that the jointer head was a little stiff. I had always assumed sealed bearing, but then started looking and found pipe plugs on both the saw and jointer. Took them out and the passageways were clean with no sign of oil or grease. Put some grease fittings in and shot grease to it. After a few pumps, saw the grease and everything loosened up. So far we are talking about 50 or 60 years with no oil or grease, and no damage.
Anyway, for some reason, I have started to wonder if grease is really what the Davis and Wells used, or are those really for oil lubrication like some mills etc.
Does anyone have any ideas on this?
John L
 
Depends on the bearing housing. For the speeds they probably run at, good grease is fine. But if the housing was built to accept it, correct spindle oil is never worse, so long as not over-filled. That goes with either substance, of course. Churning grease or oil overheats the bearings causing them to skid, and usually eventually causing the retainers to fail.

I've never used that brand, but they are reputed to be good machines.
smt
 
Long story.
Back in the early 50s pop bought out a bankrupt cabinet shop. Among the items in it was a Davis and Wells 12" table saw, and a 6 " Davis and Wells jointer. I estimate from the serial numbers the manufacture date to be 1935-36. He used them off and on while I was growing up, and then when he died, I got them. I have not used them much, but they have seen periods of regular use.

A couple of years ago, I decided to replace the drive belts on both the saw and jointer, as they were very worn and ragged (probably been on there since 1940s. After taking the belts off, I noticed that the jointer head was a little stiff. I had always assumed sealed bearing, but then started looking and found pipe plugs on both the saw and jointer. Took them out and the passageways were clean with no sign of oil or grease. Put some grease fittings in and shot grease to it. After a few pumps, saw the grease and everything loosened up. So far we are talking about 50 or 60 years with no oil or grease, and no damage.
Anyway, for some reason, I have started to wonder if grease is really what the Davis and Wells used, or are those really for oil lubrication like some mills etc.
Does anyone have any ideas on this?
John L

I am no expert on Davis and Wells, but the basic observation that the lubrication channel was void of grease tells me it was originaly lubircated with an oil.
Grease does not flow or run away and leave a clean passageway.

I doubt you have done any harm useing grease, but it is sticky and will tend to build up clump of sawdust around the bearing journals.

Grease is commonly used to lubricate and its viscosity helps keep dust from migrating back into precison parts.
Construction and agg equipment are usualy greased because regular greasing purges the bearings when the seals fail.
The same concept applies to other dusty or dirty environments.
Now that you have filled the system with grease, going back to oil will be a chalenge.
You may be better off leaving well enough alone.


Pay attention to the bearing temperatures. If you have a problem, they will get hot.
 
Ahall-

Many industrial woodwhacking machines before the 50's had those serious bearing housings with deep wells, that could be oil lubed. However, if the bearing in the center section were assembled at the factory with the correct amount of grease, you would never see it out in the outer sections of the chambers, especially 50 or 70 years on.

Point being, if he did not see any evidence of any lube in the outer well through the plug hole, it does not really indicate anything about how the bearing was originally lubed. A decade or so on, let alone up to 70 years, we can assume it need lubed, but again, there remains a question of "by what substance"

You & I both agree that oil is better. (so long as not over filled) Also, gunning grease into the outer reservoir of one of those housings does not guarantee it will reach the bearing unless the bearing is over filled (grease seen to exude from the periphery of the rings)/. But I don't think either of us can say on the face of it that grease is the wrong lube.

If he opens it to see or can otherwise ID the bearing, a little time with a chart in the catalog and knowing the rpm & aprox load will fill in the blanks.

smt
 
I've never used that brand, but they are reputed to be good machines.
I've never had one either but have the impression they are perhaps a notch above Walker Turner....i.e. not good in comparison to truly "good" machines, but adequate for most mid range applications and perhaps even "excellent" to those that don't know any better. Similar to the claims of the Bellsaw being the best planer 'ol Festus Haggen ever seen. Davis Wells accolades even more pronounced by those with the home state nostalgia (CA)
 
Well, if we're trading rumors, I've also heard from reputable and competent woodworkers that the Davis Wells table saws are well made, but under appreciated machines.
 
The 20" Davis and Wells bandsaw is, in my and many other people's opinion, the best-made 20" bandsaw every produced. It's not the prettiest, but it is 900lbs of cast iron (for comparison, Delta 20" saws are more like 600lb) with way overbuilt trunnions that are about 3x thicker than the ones on the Yates 20." The entire saw, including the whole base, is a single casting (unlike the Northfield 20"). It also has solid cast wheels, a fantastic bearing and tensioning design, and a great guide system. And everything you'd ever want to adjust on the saw is adjustable.

Their jointer has one of the longest beds of any 6" jointer (I think they also made s short-bed version for a while, but it's rarer), and it's also designed so you can joint up to 10" wide boards using the outboard area in the casting with 2 passes.

The shaper is roughly the footprint of the Delta/Powermatic shapers, but it's a hell of a lot heavier (solid casting instead of a sheet metal base) and it has the big spindle bearing system like Northfield and other industrial shapers.

I would not put D&W machines in the same category as Walker Turner or other home-shop oriented machines.
 
I would not put D&W machines in the same category as Walker Turner or other home-shop oriented machines.
I was going by a combination of reports to me over the decades and their appearance in sales literature I have....but never having one in the flesh I could be wrong. Perhaps my D&W sales literature is of a certain vintage where they were not as impressive as they later became ? I wonder the D&W company lifespan was ?
 
I just checked out the D & W 20" bandsaw on OWWM, looks like a very impressive and serious machine. The guides are like the ones on my Tannewitz, which are great.

Glad to have learned about this maker.
 
I was going by a combination of reports to me over the decades and their appearance in sales literature I have....but never having one in the flesh I could be wrong. Perhaps my D&W sales literature is of a certain vintage where they were not as impressive as they later became ? I wonder the D&W company lifespan was ?

D & W was in business 1935-1983. In the later years, they also made the 20" bandsaw and a couple of other machines for Oliver, who rebadged it. They have not been in production for some time, but their inventory and original factory building was bought by Dan Malouin (sp?), and he rebuilds them and stocks parts.

You are correct that they became more impressive over time. The earliest 20" saws had a mermaid base, whereas the later ones have a huge solid cast iron base with a steel shroud. They also changed the trunnion design for a total of 3 different castings over the years -- each one beefier than the last.

I have this little beast in my shop in Cleveland (pic from the day I bought it). It's from the last run made. I sought it out in Los Angeles and had it hauled back to the midwest. It is my favorite machine of any I have owned.

I just checked out the D & W 20" bandsaw on OWWM, looks like a very impressive and serious machine. The guides are like the ones on my Tannewitz, which are great.

Glad to have learned about this maker.

Actually, most Tanny's have a guide that looks a lot like a Wright Black Diamond, where the left half and the right half of the guide are separate castings that you screw together to tighten the guide around the blade. The D&W is a clamshell design: one piece casting, and as you tighten it, the clamshell squeezes shut. Both styles are far superior to everything else I have used, as they give a ton of support to the blade. The D&W takes a few more minutes to set up the first time than the Wright/Tanny style, but after that you can adjust it for different blades more easily and everything stays perfectly square and aligned.


 
I've seen pix of a couple of saws where the dished portion of the front cover over each wheel was missing. Are they removable? Seems you'd want them in there.

So, what were the dates for the last and beefiest version of this saw? Do you know serial numbers for that version? Just in case I run into one.
 
I've seen pix of a couple of saws where the dished portion of the front cover over each wheel was missing. Are they removable? Seems you'd want them in there.

So, what were the dates for the last and beefiest version of this saw? Do you know serial numbers for that version? Just in case I run into one.

They are not removable -- earlier versions of the saw door jut covered around the rim of the wheels/blade, rather than having a solid door. Interestingly, the door and guards are solid cast aluminum.

I do not know the dates of the last version. Mine has a Rankin Bros. plate on the side of it -- Rankin Bros. bought them in the last few years of production (although I don't know if this was before or after they made the last adjustments to the design). One other difference is that later saws have a cast aluminum blade guard that fully encloses the blade above the upper guide and is attached to the bottom of the guide bar. Older ones had a (pot metal?) cast guard that attaches to the top of the guide bar and only encloses the front and right of the blade in this area. I believe something about the guide bar changed in the last edition, too -- zinc steel or something like that. Dan at Davis and Wells would know for sure. I have been out to his place in LA a few times -- he's a great guy, and he happens to know the dimensions of every part in the saw by heart. He also usually has a couple of fully rebuild ones for sale. They were going for somewhat more than Craigslist prices last time I checked, but they looked beautifully redone.

One thing to know if you buy used is that the tires on the saw are vulcanized rubber. This is nicer than normal bandsaws' glued on tires, but it costs more to replace if someone managed to mangle it (if it's just a little bit messed up than the rubber is thick enough to regrind, and I suppose if it's really bad and you don't want to pay $300 for revulcanizing/grinding then you could grind it off and replace with standard tires).

I believe all of the editions have a 26" square table that tilts to 45°, and all (I believe -- definitely the later ones) can resaw 13" or 13.5."
 
Yes, they are vulcanized on and have a slight crown ground on when they came from the factory. If memory serves, the rubber is more than 1/8" thick at the edges and thicker in the middle, so you have some room for regrinding the existing rubber unless it's a real disaster. You can send wheels back to Davis & Wells to have revulcanizing done. I also know of 2 people who had theirs done at Daily Saw in LA (revulcanized, ground, and dynamically balanced) and were very happy with the results (I haven't dealt with them personally). I also know of someone who just ground off the rubber (the same you would do for a normal bandsaw tire) and installed a standard tire. The table and trunnions have lots of adjustments so you should be fine even if you change the wheel diameter a bit.

The wheels were dynamically balanced after being ground, which makes them the smoothest I have ever seen. It's amazing how long they spin when you turn it off (being a heavy casting doesn't hurt either...). They make the pot metal spoked wheels you see on many saws look like toys. They are also bored for a very tight fit to the shaft, which makes pulling them take a bit more effort, but ensures that you don't get vibrations/wobble.
 
Back to the saw and jointer, I shot them with grease before I knew better. Some that have replied say leave it alone, some say oil would be better. I think that I could probably shoot enough oil in there to flush most of the grease out. Would that be something I would want to do, or just hit it with a little grease every once in a while?
John L
 
..Pay attention to the bearing temperatures. If you have a problem, they will get hot.

At this stage of the game I think this is probably your best option. If the bearings don't get hot you don't have a problem--sounds like the machines don't get used a whole bunch anyway...
 
Agree with above.
If the machine were turned on in the AM and shut down in the evening 5 days week, every week, oil would be your best bet. But with infrequent use, and the relatively low speed (3600rpm?) grease will be okay if you don't over-fill it. If the cutter head exceeds 4,500 rpm (as a guess, I don't know the bearing ID/OD) you may want to flush and use oil. The smaller the dia bearings, the faster they can run, same quality to same quality and same style retainers. But that is a really vast generalization.

smt

smt
 
Yes, back to the OP. I'm pretty sure all my woodworking machines use grease. Highest speed (since I sold my pin router) is my shaper, I used Kluber grease in that when I rebuilt it. I don't think you'll have any problems at all so long as you don't over grease.

Some high end shapers and routers can use oil mist, but those are machines meant to run 24/7
 
Yes, back to the OP. I'm pretty sure all my woodworking machines use grease. Highest speed (since I sold my pin router) is my shaper, I used Kluber grease in that when I rebuilt it. I don't think you'll have any problems at all so long as you don't over grease.

Some high end shapers and routers can use oil mist, but those are machines meant to run 24/7

OP, I would definitely check if the bearings are sealed or not. I have bought several machines where someone along the line replaced open bearings with sealed bearings but left the grease zerks in. On some of them, it was obvious that someone kept packing grease into the zerks anyways. (as a side note, remove the zerks and replace with plugs if the bearings turn out to be sealed). Old D&W used shielded bearings on most machines, and they switched to sealed by the late 70's (maybe before -- i'm not sure). But people often make the switch themselves.
 








 
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