I've never needed an edge bander and probably never will, but just curious why so many different models and makes of them have popped up for sale over the years ? All I can figure is it's a combination of the need of different complexities of them for different states of production and evolution of different model features and quality within all these different size/complex versions. Perhaps some are for straight edges only but others will glue on curved edges for example ? But there are just sooooo many of them it boggles my mind. Thoughts ?
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Edge banders- Why are there ten billion different ones ?
- Thread starter Milacron
- Start date
- Replies 16
- Views 7,151
macgyver
Stainless
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2012
- Location
- Pittsburg, KS
I have ran and been around enough to feel comfortable with them and I have paid attention to them at IWF and AWFS. I think it is just like any other type or category of machine that gets popular, lots of companies get into making and selling them and they all have to be somewhat different. Just in the ones I have ran, there was a SCMI basic one, it was the size of a desk and the trimmer motors were Bosch hand grinder motors, complete with the cord plugged into an reg 110v outlet. It was made for the beginner and was cheap in the scheme of things. I have spent the most time on a mid sized HolzHer 1315 which is app 15 ft long and fairly well equipped, and now I have my own Adwood/Cehisa that is equivalent to the HolzHer in size and capacity.
The biggest thing about a bander is the fact that you have so many stations that do different things, these are machines that are harder to keep in trim than a molder or cnc router. There are at least 2 different types of glue application systems, either a glue pot or a cartridge. Then you have your knife to cut the banding, the pressure wheels - some are programmable and timed to apply at the right time. Next is top and bottom trimmers and rounding , then leading and trailing edge trimmers, maybe corner/end rounding, maybe buffing, scraping, heat guns, etc. There are so many options depending on what you specialize in.
Pvc banding jobs will want the end rounding, scrapers and buffers and heat gun. The solid wood strips, which can get up to 3/4" thick or deep depending how you look at it, you do not want any of those stations on when you run that, you have to change over to strips instead of rolls too, so you need a different feed wheel and turn off the knife. Veneer projects will be a combo in between these two. Some of them you can fill up the magazine with different banding and it can auto load it.
Then you get into the different controls on them, anything from none, just handles/cranks and manual on/off switches, to full blown cnc controls on them. That HolzHer was a PLC that you could program for different jobs and it would activate the needed stations from the control.
Next you get into the huge plants that their banders are a few hundred feet long and they get spun around, flipped etc enroute to the finish line. When you start adding in the material handling into them too, it gets real crazy.
Oh, I forgot about the premill stations too, if you get that, it will make a final finish cut to eliminate any chipping or out of whack saw cuts and give the best joint surface you can get before it puts the banding on.
So, take all these variables and figure up the different combinations you can get with them and it makes it a little easier to see why there are some many out there. Also take into account that they are the most finicky machine made and they can easily get kicked to the curb from disgust. If shops neglect them in the maintenance, it could get to the point very soon that it would be easier and cheaper to get a new one vs fix their pos.
As for curved parts, the only ones I have seen are various handheld or table mounted single station versions or Homag/BAZ makes a cnc router contour edgebander combo machine. They are in the $1.2M range. These are a pod and rail router that you put your blank of material on and cut the part and profile, then it will pull the banding from the loaded magazine and apply it, cut it to length and trim it all in one cycle. When it is done, the part just needs wiped off and sent to assembly.
The biggest thing about a bander is the fact that you have so many stations that do different things, these are machines that are harder to keep in trim than a molder or cnc router. There are at least 2 different types of glue application systems, either a glue pot or a cartridge. Then you have your knife to cut the banding, the pressure wheels - some are programmable and timed to apply at the right time. Next is top and bottom trimmers and rounding , then leading and trailing edge trimmers, maybe corner/end rounding, maybe buffing, scraping, heat guns, etc. There are so many options depending on what you specialize in.
Pvc banding jobs will want the end rounding, scrapers and buffers and heat gun. The solid wood strips, which can get up to 3/4" thick or deep depending how you look at it, you do not want any of those stations on when you run that, you have to change over to strips instead of rolls too, so you need a different feed wheel and turn off the knife. Veneer projects will be a combo in between these two. Some of them you can fill up the magazine with different banding and it can auto load it.
Then you get into the different controls on them, anything from none, just handles/cranks and manual on/off switches, to full blown cnc controls on them. That HolzHer was a PLC that you could program for different jobs and it would activate the needed stations from the control.
Next you get into the huge plants that their banders are a few hundred feet long and they get spun around, flipped etc enroute to the finish line. When you start adding in the material handling into them too, it gets real crazy.
Oh, I forgot about the premill stations too, if you get that, it will make a final finish cut to eliminate any chipping or out of whack saw cuts and give the best joint surface you can get before it puts the banding on.
So, take all these variables and figure up the different combinations you can get with them and it makes it a little easier to see why there are some many out there. Also take into account that they are the most finicky machine made and they can easily get kicked to the curb from disgust. If shops neglect them in the maintenance, it could get to the point very soon that it would be easier and cheaper to get a new one vs fix their pos.
As for curved parts, the only ones I have seen are various handheld or table mounted single station versions or Homag/BAZ makes a cnc router contour edgebander combo machine. They are in the $1.2M range. These are a pod and rail router that you put your blank of material on and cut the part and profile, then it will pull the banding from the loaded magazine and apply it, cut it to length and trim it all in one cycle. When it is done, the part just needs wiped off and sent to assembly.
Spud
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2006
- Location
- Brookfield, Wisconsin
That's a curiosity I too have, namely how is there a market for soo fany different Mfgs to exist.
Another product that has me dumbfounded is core drill rig mfgs. , and how there could be a market for soo many Mfgs to exist.
Scruffy887
Titanium
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2012
- Location
- Se Ma USA
They are expensive to buy and resale value is crap. Sooo many things moving around. They used to have mechanical prox switches to trigger each station. You would slide them around to get the timing right. Of course the switch that you just moved looked like it was the right one, but it was not. They now have encoders on the feed so the stations do their thing by counting the pulses/PLC. Most people start out really wanting a machine that can apply 3/4 wood strips. And then they try it and it looks like crap. Only looks good at a trade show. I have 2 of the suckers. Both Brandt. One is 25 feet long and the other 27 feet long. Both with pre mill and bulk glue hoppers. It takes 3-4 months to get them running the way you want them to if you buy them new.
You buy them according to budget and needs. Glue/single motor end trim/top and bottom trim for .018 pvc or veneer as a starter. My biggest machine starts with pre mill and we set that station to remove the thickness of the edging we are applying. Glue application, quartz heater after that, edging fed and snipped, 4 pressure rollers, double motor swivel end trim, first top and bottom, second profileing top and bottom that can also do corners, profile scrapers, buffers, and heat gun is last. All controled from a screen. Machine is long enough that an operator can put 5 pieces in the machine and sprint to the other end to catch them before they fall on the floor.
You buy them according to budget and needs. Glue/single motor end trim/top and bottom trim for .018 pvc or veneer as a starter. My biggest machine starts with pre mill and we set that station to remove the thickness of the edging we are applying. Glue application, quartz heater after that, edging fed and snipped, 4 pressure rollers, double motor swivel end trim, first top and bottom, second profileing top and bottom that can also do corners, profile scrapers, buffers, and heat gun is last. All controled from a screen. Machine is long enough that an operator can put 5 pieces in the machine and sprint to the other end to catch them before they fall on the floor.
Great replies so far, appreciate the nitty gritty details as that finally explains it. Among other things, I forgot about PVC banding, which I presume is popular for commercial applications. I remember perhaps 10 years ago was at an auction in Durham, NC where I came within a hair of buying a ten foot long elaborate German made edgebander that appeared as new but sold dirt cheap. Or so I thought at the time...probably a good thing I was outbid.
macgyver
Stainless
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2012
- Location
- Pittsburg, KS
From my experience, it is hard to get work specifically for the edgebander, what I mean is it is not like a router where you can get someone bringing you work just for the bander. It is usually built into your in house jobs and used mostly for that. I will say that when you get one running well they are a beautiful thing.
Biggest thing to know about a bander is that you have 1 operator and no one else touches it, if that guy dies, you are screwed because if you plan to have it running right all the time, it has to be just one person that does the adjusting. You get multiple people turning cranks etc and you are in for it.
I will also mention that a bander is just as important to get proper training on as any other major piece of equipment. We had a great install tech train us on the HolzHer and when he left I was very comfortable with the machine and he had taught us how to test and track down problems. Well worth the time to go through it.
Biggest thing to know about a bander is that you have 1 operator and no one else touches it, if that guy dies, you are screwed because if you plan to have it running right all the time, it has to be just one person that does the adjusting. You get multiple people turning cranks etc and you are in for it.
I will also mention that a bander is just as important to get proper training on as any other major piece of equipment. We had a great install tech train us on the HolzHer and when he left I was very comfortable with the machine and he had taught us how to test and track down problems. Well worth the time to go through it.
So to this day, are none of these "perfected" to the point of making them idiot-proof ? Even in 2013 they are finicky and require lots of training and adjustments ?
stephen thomas
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2001
Damn, Mil, I can hear the gears starting to turn all the way up here! Would not be the first time you identified and simplified a market niche.
smt
Scruffy887
Titanium
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2012
- Location
- Se Ma USA
Multiple operators are not so bad...as long as they just turn it on and turn it off. My first bander was an Ott that I bought new around 1985. It had a gravity fed glue pot with adjustable gates on each side of the glue roller and the roller could go CW or CCW. Open them in the wrong sequence and start the roller in the wrong direction. Glue pot would empty itself inside the machine and hot glue would pour into the gears and chains that powered the pressure rollers. I think it was about 3 hours laying on your back to clean up, and you had to drop everything and get at it before the glue solidified. I did not have that bander very long.
My newest Brandt is fairly simple because it has a screen with every setup we use on it. Turn on and home it. Turn on the heaters and the rollers start as soon as it is up to temp. Call up the edge material and panel thickness and the machine adjusts itself. All stations are under PLC control.
Wow...what a nightmare. Do you remember aprox what year it was made and how much it cost ?
Scruffy887
Titanium
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2012
- Location
- Se Ma USA
Bought new in 1984. I think it was $22,000.00 delivered and set up. I was lucky because I sold it about 4 years later for $12,000.00 and bought my first Brandt. The Ott was very fussy with height settings because the copy wheels on the top and bottom trimmers had a bit of flex in them. Very easy to mill into the face of the panel if not set right, or slightly thicker panel.
Interesting. Is Ott still in business ? (sorry about the redundant question of year... I missed the word "new" in your original post and thought maybe you bought it used)
martinberryman
Aluminum
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2011
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
I agree with this, and am coming from a similar perspective. We have had some really crappy machines, including a cartridge style, and we now have a phenomenal Brandt KDF 5xx series machine (about 4 years old) with servo motors controlled by the PLC, and a quasi touch screen interface. Pull up a program, the machine resets itself to the the pre-configured settings, and away you go. We only have a couple of guys who load configurations, change insert knives etc, and it's proven pretty bulletproof, even with 15 different operators throughout the course of a week. Even a glue pot change for colour is only a 5 minute job. Pre-milling (essentially a jointer on the infeed), eliminates many of the inconsistency problems associated with edgebanding. Like with most machines, a heavier, more robust frame gives better finish results, and eliminates a lot of variables. Our last machine, a Brandt KD-55, I could measure 0.045" of flex on the pressure beam as a part went through the machine.
In answer to the original question, there are a huge number of options available, many geared to trimming leading and trailing edge profiles in the post-forming industry, machine frame sizes all the way from table top heat gun units to 40 foot long, and budgets ranging from $200 to $200,000. Applying edges to panels that have a profiled edge (in cross section) has started to become popular in the furniture and closet industry. Some of the office furniture guys have what amounts to a point to point with a glue pot and applicator right on the travelling head, rotatable via a C-Axis. They can edgeband an irregular shaped part, so long as no two edges end in a sharp inside corner.
The latest process that seems to be getting traction is using pre-glued banding and a laser to activate the glue. I'm sure me and Scruffy887 aren't the only two people in the world who've spent too much of their lives cleaning up excess glue from a poorly adjusted glue pot, burning fingers dissasembling glue rollers, or cleaning stringy hotmelt off every station in the machine after a mis-feed of the edging. I've always looked down my nose at pre-glued, but maybe that's will change over the next decade (or two).
Martin
Can you post a photo of your Brandt KDF 5 series and/or provide a link to a brochure on it ? Where is it made ? I'm getting more curious about these as this discussion continues.
martinberryman
Aluminum
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2011
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
Here's a link on the Stiles site to the brochure for the latest version of our machine...
http://www.stilesmachinery.com/includes/files/assets/files/1300131077_98-100-00014.pdf
Martin
http://www.stilesmachinery.com/includes/files/assets/files/1300131077_98-100-00014.pdf
Martin
Scruffy887
Titanium
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2012
- Location
- Se Ma USA
The latest process that seems to be getting traction is using pre-glued banding and a laser to activate the glue. I'm sure me and Scruffy887 aren't the only two people in the world who've spent too much of their lives cleaning up excess glue from a poorly adjusted glue pot, burning fingers dissasembling glue rollers, or cleaning stringy hotmelt off every station in the machine after a mis-feed of the edging. I've always looked down my nose at pre-glued, but maybe that's will change over the next decade (or two).
Martin
Laser to activate pre applied glue or to melt/fuse the pvc?
And the smart guy is not the one to feed the machine. He is the guy who catches. I have had more than dope stack up a pile of parts with glue and no edging on them, or a pile of short fed parts. That's why we have a piece of mirror opposite the edge at the outfeed.
In 95 I got a small Brandt loaner while waiting for my second Brandt (25 footer) to arrive. I had a Brandt already with a lot of Homag parts but it would not process 3mm pvc. Loaner did a great job profiling and scraping the 3mm pvc but when we went into production it started leaving bumps on the profile. WTF? It was on the top edge and required a bit of careful hand filing to smooth out. I put a piece in the machine and it came out perfect. Operator started feeding parts and the problem returned. I fed another and it came out perfect. I finally traced the problem to the stiffness and weight of the machine. A single part was fine but when multiple parts were fed one after another the upper beam would jump when the guillotine fired and that caused the bump. It was a huge job and we ran all of the 3mm edged doors face down. Bump was still there but almost impossible to find on the back of a door or drawer front.
Martin
Laser to activate pre applied glue or to melt/fuse the pvc?
And the smart guy is not the one to feed the machine. He is the guy who catches. I have had more than dope stack up a pile of parts with glue and no edging on them, or a pile of short fed parts. That's why we have a piece of mirror opposite the edge at the outfeed.
In 95 I got a small Brandt loaner while waiting for my second Brandt (25 footer) to arrive. I had a Brandt already with a lot of Homag parts but it would not process 3mm pvc. Loaner did a great job profiling and scraping the 3mm pvc but when we went into production it started leaving bumps on the profile. WTF? It was on the top edge and required a bit of careful hand filing to smooth out. I put a piece in the machine and it came out perfect. Operator started feeding parts and the problem returned. I fed another and it came out perfect. I finally traced the problem to the stiffness and weight of the machine. A single part was fine but when multiple parts were fed one after another the upper beam would jump when the guillotine fired and that caused the bump. It was a huge job and we ran all of the 3mm edged doors face down. Bump was still there but almost impossible to find on the back of a door or drawer front.
And you want us to reveal all our secrets ?
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