Thread: Flatten & Scrape Hand Planes

I surface ground my block, rabbit, 3, 4, 5 & 7. I think they worked better afterward, it was easier to get a fine shaving that took less care to keep even. I found it made a difference on mine if the iron was installed.

Originally Posted by stephen thomas

It's not so much the actual width of the scraper bit that people are commenting on, but the radius. The size of the marks in the photos is not "wrong" for a plane or your stated goal of 10 points/inch^2. However, a smaller radius tool & commensurately shorter stroke that might ultimately yield a denser bearing (20 - 25 points?) will actually be a little easier to use to dial in the all-over coverage on a small item like a #4 & smaller plane sole.

Peripheral comments, there is an advantage to dense bearing on the infeed lip.
For a plane, while it should not rock on a surface plate, a dense bearing around the lip & toe area with less dense on the sole behind the iron (blade) is not a disadvantage.

For planes, either the cap iron (not generally applicable with block planes and other bevel up planes) is the chipbreaker/chip control. Or the edge of the lip in front of the blade is. Regrettably, a perfectly functioning (IOW very sharp, obtuse angle, closely set) cap iron is not physically possible in the space set by a perfect (fine, uniform, sharp edged) aperture in front of the iron. So the choice is one or the other, though a plane can easily have both options in one platform, user choice for the task.

I keep threatening to make a Mk2 version of my adjustable pitch, adjustable throat, cap iron equipped smoother that includes a hardened steel re-sharpenable "blade" at the aperture edge of the toe piece. Like a veneer slicer uses. Other major projects and currently skiing get in the way.

Per your objectives, you should also experiment with a "perfect" cap iron in an open throat. To gain another perspective on options for optimizing shaving control, & obviating or dramatically minimizing tear-out.
Chipbreaker Study

As per many woodworkers' experience and noted in the above link, pitch of the cutter face is a contributing factor (greater usually = less tear-out) but IME is more effective as wood hardness increases. IOW. too steep in softwoods can lead other versions of surface defect. A bevel up plane most of which include adjustable toe pieces, can have the bevel quickly ground to any pitch, and the aperture immediately adjusted as preferred.

Get a comfortable handle on the scraper.

Have fun.
Keep reporting.

smt
Think Snow!

@stephen thomas I understood the width and the radius difference, I don't think I'm describing properly what I was doing with the scraper and I think I misunderstood some input on here as well. I was really digging with the 120mm, I found leaning in less and raising the angle of attack, helped with the stroke width. Makes sense now, but at the time, it was vexing! I have now moved down from a 120mm radius to a 90mm radius. I wish I had a 60!

I have to agree entirely with the commentary on smaller radius and strokes. The plane is only 2" or so wide I believe, there is not a lot of room, and a run away stroke can reach the 35-50% mark of the body's width easily! I am getting the count up, after having shortened the stroke, made sure to really focus on no overlap of strokes, and having lightened up when printing.

There is a definite trade off between mouth opening size and projection with a finely set cap iron. I am using my bevel up Jack as a reference for smoothing, because it is the only plane I own, that I know to be; decently flat, thick and milled bed for the iron, thick blade, sharp blade, and fine mouth. As noted, no cap iron on block planes, which includes the bevel up low angle jack - but it has given me something to aim for.

My bench planes that are my users, and not for mass material removal (#5 with its mouth opened up), all take decently thin shavings (#4,6,8), and I don't mean piece of paper thick, I mean I have fettled them into tissue paper thick, maybe slightly less. The issue is in the control of the cut, and the chatter. I do believe the better the parts mate, the better control I will have. These planes are going to be a very large part of my day to day life in a few months time and scraping seemed to be better suited than glass and sandpaper as discussed. Not an easy task to grapple with, but there is a surprising amount of similarity between scraping a plane bottom into flat, and bringing a face of a board into flat, using 3 planes in the surfacing process. The differences lie in the actual physical technique of scraping, scrape angles, printing, etc. But fundamentally, very similar.

I need the handle. I also need to improve the ledge where the insert sits. I don't own a mill or any heavy machinery for metal, so grinders and files are what I'm working with. I need to grind the back wall of the "seat" a bit further, slightly hollow the back wall so it doesn't act as a pivot, and flatten out the bottom lip where the insert sits, so that it stops acting as a pivot as well.

Here is a progress pic for today. The strokes are now very short, and on the next pass, I think I'm going to focus on the heavy blues. The low area in front of the mouth bounces back and forth. I scrape the highs, print, and it prints on the other side of the mouth. I scrape that side, print again, and the blues return to the other side. Relatively speaking, I scrape the right side, it then prints heavy left. I scrape the left side, it prints heavy right.

At this point I'm past 10ppi. It is not a perfect 50% distribution, and it is also not perfect in terms of the plane distribution where it would be most optimal to be heavy at the toe, heel, and in front of the mouth. This is a practice piece. I considered leaving it like this, but I want to practice all of the components of the process before I move on to my bench planes, so I'm going to try to take the highest points off on the next cycle, and see where that takes me.

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Originally Posted by Mcgyver

If you're a professional woodworker you're going to know a lot more about this than I. However, I can square and dimension a piece of would by hand and when doing so, the flatness of the plane is main feedback mechanism you receive when planing. I don't believe you're going to benefit from flatness to a 10th, fairly easily achieved by scraping, but all things being equal, more flat is better than less flat. Some of mine where not that flat and scraping is an easy way to get them so without any risk of warping (as per tales of warping from grinding....don't know if its a real risk, but with scraping I don't have to find out).




Are you saying you want the irregularities or that they are a feature of planing? Not sure I agree with that. planed and scraped is the superior to finish compared to sanding and the more accurately you are able to plane, the less scraping you'd have to do

As for sharpening a scraper blade, de rigueur is lapping. I get the top and bottom polished to a mirror then sharpen the ends on the home lap below using 10 micron diamond paste. the cutting edge is obtuse so you get two cuttings on the end of each scraper

The main commentary that convinced me of the benefit of scraping hand planes, was Mr.Thomas talking about his infills, and demonstrating the quality of cut in quarter sawn white oak. I am sure if your plane cuts, and you're just roughing it into flat before putting it through a planer, then that's fine, but that's the capacity to which it will work. Scraping makes sense, it's basically how the Japanese set up their Kanna. Japanese planes are wooden bodied planes that cut on the pull stroke they're hollow scraped between the toe and the front of the mouth, and the area behind the mouth to the heel. The iron is heavy, and ground hollow on the back to ease lapping the blades face. The blade is then scraped to the bed, with a pencil as the marking compound, and a chisel to scrape. The bed surface is end grain, typically oak, so it holds its setting well. Japanese planes move like any wood plane, but scraping wood planes is certainly less intensive than iron planes. I believe someone on here commented once they scrape their WOOD bodied planes to a surface plate, with their carbide scraper. With the edge the scraper takes, it makes sense. Tough grain, final smoothing, shooting end grain, all will be tough with a plane that isn't flat. Does it need to be flat to a tenth, not at all. I'm confident at 5 PPI, it would be plenty flat for general woodworking.

The bench planes I'm restoring are primarily north of 100 years old. They are not flat, checking against a sliding square rule. Don't even need to go to the surface plate to find out. In my first post, I had lapped for a few hours, burned through a ton of sandpaper, made hardly any progress, and really liked the look of scraping at that point anyways. I wholly decided to undertake the project, after confirming my disdain for lapping on the granite and sandpaper, and figured a new school wouldn't do me any harm.

@Mcgyver ; I don't have a nice lapping machine like you've got, but I would love to get one! One day, when I have space for metal machines, it will be an excuse for a lap to sharpen carbide inserts for more than just a scraper! I have diamond compound I've embedded in a piece of granite (an off cut from a counter top). I was planning to follow Robin Renzetti's Instagram post recently on using a block of wood and cutting on a diamond disc. I have the diamond discs that I want to use, instead of my diamond plates I use for woodworking tools prior to final honing. The top and bottom of my inserts came fully polished from Sandvik.

Beautiful plane, did you change out the blade and chip breaker? #5? I love the look of the hand planes scraped, I really think it's a wonderful adornment. Did you use it before scraping, just to feel the difference?

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McGyver-

Is that black locust?

BHickman - are you really in Algeria?
Or is that like when I used to drive over past Cuba (NY) for mahogany?

smt

You can scrape away at the trailing and leading edges of that large plane. Make the scrape marks equivalent to 120 grit. Then you have a unique plane that can
shave at the front and sand on the trailing edge. Two things at once. Reminds me of a gum commercial...

If I was into altering a large plane then I would machine v-grooves on the sole of a No. 7.

Originally Posted by stephen thomas

McGyver-

Is that black locust?

BHickman - are you really in Algeria?
Or is that like when I used to drive over past Cuba (NY) for mahogany?

smt

@stephen thomas I am not in Algeria. I have tried a few times to "edit" my profile, to have it show Ontario, Canada. It will not cooperate. So Algerian I became


I have left my block plane now, the final spotting I counted 20ppi in the lowest areas (2 square areas not in key locations). The pattern was very strange, because I had been making A VERY dumb mistake. I would make a pass \\\\\, stone, print, and then be sure to rotate the part 180° so my next pass would go the opposite direction so once I sorted that out, my distribution became more dense which was nice to see. Scraping all in the same direction made the pattern look like freckles. If I ever figure out what block plane it is that I have, maybe I'll be able to get a blade for it, scrape the bed, tension it, and touch up the sole.

Tried sharpening, I did it a little different to the way Mr.Renzetti posted on Instagram. I used gravity to my advantage, and some scrap wood. I made a first pass over my #4 to test the sharpness of the insert. I'm not sure why, but the blade cut much more predictably and felt less like it was digging in after I sharpened it. I thought it wouldn't work as well since my EDGE was no longer mirror polished as it came from Sandvik. Now that I know the scraper is back to sharp, I will scrape the frog face on the #4. Then scrape the bottom of the frog to the bed. Then put it back together, properly tensioned, and work the sole. This time, crisscrossing properly!

Attached are some pictures. Block plane final surface (I love how it looks). The sharpening setup. The first pass after sharpening the edges. The edge of the scraper, with a hint of Sharpie remaining.

Before everyone jumps on it; about the blade in the picture. That's a blade I got for Christmas, but it doesn't fit the plane, so I have it there for pictures, and pictures alone.

For the sharpening setup. The diamond disc slides down, while I rotate the carbide insert against the diamond disc. Seems to have worked. I tried diamond paste on a scrap piece of granite, might drop that part of the process, since my highest grit diamond disc is 3,000 grit

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Originally Posted by stephen thomas

Is that black locust?

Maple, not sure what flavour

Disappointed to learn you're not in exotic Algeria, but just across the lake from us in Ontario. But it appears you've got the scraping down just fine, your block plane looks great! Now you have to decide just how far you want to take things for cosmetic interest, freshly scraped surface is a thing of beauty for sure. But be warned that in use they get pretty scratched up...

A few things to consider:

On the block plane did you check the sliding mouth plate to make sure it's bearing surfaces are parallel to the bed? If we're splitting hairs, that can make a difference. I had to kiss mine on the vertical mill.

Considering rake angles, you can vary the cutting angle on a bevel down iron by stoning in a tiny back bevel on the back face of the iron. You'd want to have some extra irons, 5 deg, and maybe even 10 & 15. That's I used 5 deg for highly figured quartered, hard curly maple to avoid tearout, It works well, but the higher the cutting angle, the harder it is to push the plane, and the less slick the cut. Just in case anyone is not sure of this stuff, cutting angle is the angle between the blade face and the work surface, rake is the angle between the blade face and a line 90 deg from the work surface vertical) When you get to 0 rake (90 deg cutting angle) its a scraping cut.

Speaking of scrapers, I'd assert that a clean, perfectly hand planed surface is the ultimate finish. It allows you to see the wood structure most clearly, the pores are unclogged, and it is unaffected by moisture. Scraping can certainly flatten the wood without any tear out, but it usually tears on a cellular level and pack the pores with debris, and requires grain raising and cutting back, as does sanding. I'm pretty sure some users can sharpen and use scrapers to get perfect surfaces - violin and guitars makers eg - but not me. I like to make cherry carving boards as gifts and I hand plane them for appearance, to avoid grain raising, and to keep my skills up. As a banjo maker I don't get to do anywhere near as much planing as when I was a furniture maker

My original point was that the finished, planed surface of the wood was the goal, not a plane sole flattened to the Nthdegree.
I was trying to point out that a planed surface will be irregular because of the slight radius of the iron, as Richard M+Newman also pointed out.
I've read many discussions of plane-sole flattening on the woodworking forums, most of which seemed pointless to me.However, after reading the responses here by Stephen Thomas and Richard Newman, I may have to reconsider my views. Both men are exceptional craftsmen and if they say that they flatten the soles of their planes, and that it makes a difference,I ought to take that into consideration.
Thanks for a thorough and enlightening discussion!
Rick W

Originally Posted by richard newman

Disappointed to learn you're not in exotic Algeria, but just across the lake from us in Ontario. But it appears you've got the scraping down just fine, your block plane looks great! Now you have to decide just how far you want to take things for cosmetic interest, freshly scraped surface is a thing of beauty for sure. But be warned that in use they get pretty scratched up...

A few things to consider:

On the block plane did you check the sliding mouth plate to make sure it's bearing surfaces are parallel to the bed? If we're splitting hairs, that can make a difference. I had to kiss mine on the vertical mill.

Considering rake angles, you can vary the cutting angle on a bevel down iron by stoning in a tiny back bevel on the back face of the iron. You'd want to have some extra irons, 5 deg, and maybe even 10 & 15. That's I used 5 deg for highly figured quartered, hard curly maple to avoid tearout, It works well, but the higher the cutting angle, the harder it is to push the plane, and the less slick the cut. Just in case anyone is not sure of this stuff, cutting angle is the angle between the blade face and the work surface, rake is the angle between the blade face and a line 90 deg from the work surface vertical) When you get to 0 rake (90 deg cutting angle) its a scraping cut.

Speaking of scrapers, I'd assert that a clean, perfectly hand planed surface is the ultimate finish. It allows you to see the wood structure most clearly, the pores are unclogged, and it is unaffected by moisture. Scraping can certainly flatten the wood without any tear out, but it usually tears on a cellular level and pack the pores with debris, and requires grain raising and cutting back, as does sanding. I'm pretty sure some users can sharpen and use scrapers to get perfect surfaces - violin and guitars makers eg - but not me. I like to make cherry carving boards as gifts and I hand plane them for appearance, to avoid grain raising, and to keep my skills up. As a banjo maker I don't get to do anywhere near as much planing as when I was a furniture maker

@richard newman sorry to disappoint, but yes, just on the other side of the tiny pond, not the typical pond. Thank you very much! Yes, I'm very pleased with how it looks. I'm also pleased with my efforts, they weren't totally wasted. I was wondering how the surface would fare between the heat and the rough grain. Scratched up seems reasonable. If I ever give my planes to someone else, I'll touch them up before that.

I did not check the sliding mouth. I locked it in place in a reasonable position and worked from there. Under the assumption that I wouldn't move it much after this. Lazy? Yes. Reasonable? For a scrap plane body I was just practicing on - I think so . I don't have much in the line of metrology equipment. A CHEAP dial indicator for setting jointer knives, with a very poor base on it. One day, I am hoping to get a DTI, a proper base, and a few of the smaller pieces for measuring square, parallelism, etc. A cylinder square, seemed unnecessary, even when I have a blade-less Stanley #78 oggling it's block plane friends new outfit

I have messed around with back bevels on my bevel downs. I don't have much of a need for them at the moment. My most consistent back bevel, is the "ruler trick".

Were your planes all scraped as a furniture maker, or did that come afterwards?

@stephen thomas (everyone is pointing me to you) I am struggling with the concept of spotting the frog to the bed on the bench planes I'm working on next. Tried to send you a PM but the inbox was full


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Originally Posted by Rickw55

My original point was that the finished, planed surface of the wood was the goal, not a plane sole flattened to the Nthdegree.
I was trying to point out that a planed surface will be irregular because of the slight radius of the iron, as Richard M+Newman also pointed out.
I've read many discussions of plane-sole flattening on the woodworking forums, most of which seemed pointless to me.However, after reading the responses here by Stephen Thomas and Richard Newman, I may have to reconsider my views. Both men are exceptional craftsmen and if they say that they flatten the soles of their planes, and that it makes a difference,I ought to take that into consideration.
Thanks for a thorough and enlightening discussion!
Rick W

Just to be clear @Rickw55 I think it's actually easier to scrape it in to decent flat, than it is to lap it. I also know, it's significantly less boring . I know everything I've read, has said, scrape the face of the frog, and the mating points of the frog to the bed, before touching up the sole. If you consider doing it, don't forget those steps, and then tension everything as if it were in use before doing the sole, because everything I've read, has said those steps seem to be even more important (atleast equally so) as bringing the bed in perfectly.

I am curious, what the planes will work like when I'm finished. I have birthday and Christmas money that was aimed at 2 planes from lie nielsen. I am hoping my #4 and #8 will be in league with them. The #6 is my favorite plane, and size, and coincidentally is my favorite "type" Stanley offered. That was coincidental, because when I purchased it, I was less savvy to which types were preferred, etc. The #6 will make me happy no matter how the #4&8 perform - good or bad

They're two different animals I know. Lie Nielsen is much heavier, thicker iron, cap iron, better machined moving parts, yes. But I'll be damned if the components involved in actually making the cut aren't up to snuff

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Originally Posted by Rickw55

I've read many discussions of plane-sole flattening on the woodworking forums, most of which seemed pointless to me.However, after reading the responses here by Stephen Thomas and Richard Newman, I may have to reconsider my views. Both men are exceptional craftsmen and if they say that they flatten the soles of their planes, and that it makes a difference,I ought to take that into consideration.
Rick W

Yes, but we're both acknowledged obsessives, so factor that in...

Yes, but we're both acknowledged obsessives, so factor that in...

It's not a problem if you acknowledge it, though.

Among my obsessive habits, one that started early was solid banding plywood. I didn't think that furniture, or in those days mostly millwork & cabinets, should be trashed merely when the edges got some wear. So style be darned, corners and all edges got solid wood T & G'd on. Now this can't just be fed through a widebelt sander: commercial plywood is too non-uniform (Neither flat nor perfectly parallel, not uniformly thick). A dab hand with a belt sander or stroke sander can be productive, but faster yet is a good sharp block plane with a tight set mouth. I've done acres of the stuff. There is really no room for error, and you want to be fast. That was the start of fettling planes.

As the work got more expensive or difficult to replicate if an error occurred, the interest in better planes increased. People who don't use them professionally don't get it. For a lot of work, there is no other option that works as well or as efficiently as a hand plane of some configuration. The imperative becomes that it leave very good surfaces but above all that it be predictable. Not diving in one stroke and skipping the next. Being as resistant as possible to tear-out. Preferably in any direction to the grain.

Tried to post photo examples.
Gave up after 2 yours.

smt