Gearbox/clutch issue

Mr.Green · Dec 20, 2019

I have a machine with a two speed gearbox that has a neutral position along with a high speed and low speed selectable via a handle with a linkage. I have never seen it work correctly as one of the shafts had been broken, repaired and broken again.

After having that part made, making a positive stop for the clutch fork for all three positions, it sat for a year while I worked on other things.

The gear box is driven by a belt from the off side of the cutterhead. When starting machine the gear box should be free spooling as to not cause more load on an already hard to start machine.

When I start it, the feed runs, switching from high to low doesn't change the speed at all.

Not that I expect anyone to know how to correct this issue, I am more curious to know if anyone has seen something familiar to this.

Its German and from the 60s.

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EmGo · Dec 20, 2019

If you could possibly give out a little less information, we could probably make some even more irrelevant ridiculous guesses.

john.k · Dec 20, 2019

Have you got the multiplate clutches adjusted correctly?.....should click overcentre with a firm ,not excessive resistance,then stay engaged without any load on the selector fork.....do you know how to adjust the clutches?

Mr.Green · Dec 20, 2019

EmanuelGoldstein said:
If you could possibly give out a little less information, we could probably make some even more irrelevant ridiculous guesses.

Sweet, that would be fun.

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Mr.Green · Dec 20, 2019

john.k said:
Have you got the multiplate clutches adjusted correctly?.....should click overcentre with a firm ,not excessive resistance,then stay engaged without any load on the selector fork.....do you know how to adjust the clutches?

I really am not sure how to adjust them. There is little to no info out there on these machines, even though Bauerle was the largest manufacturer of WW machinery in Germany during the 60s and 70s.

The company is still around, I ordered a manual for a different machine and was severely disappointed with what I got for 150 bucks.

The collars on the middle side of clutch packs are threaded and hopefully you can see the tab on them that locks them into groove.

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Mr.Green · Dec 20, 2019

I am not even sure what this type of clutch is called to even look anything up about it.

New to me. I even went and looked at my older metal lathes to maybe get an idea.

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js412000 · Dec 21, 2019

Typically the clutch is adjusted by turning a threaded collar.

The pen in this (random) photo points to the adjusting collar. There will be a locking device , of some sort, that prevents the adjustment from changing during machine operation. The example clutch in the photo has a spring loaded pin that is withdrawn to allow an adjustment to be made.

The clutch needs to be adjusted to function as described by Johnk in post #3.
If it is too loose the clutch will slip. If too tight the clutch will not lock "over center" and will release when the operator lets go of the handle.

Mr.Green · Dec 21, 2019

js412000 said:
Typically the clutch is adjusted by turning a threaded collar.

View attachment 273097
The pen in this (random) photo points to the adjusting collar. There will be a locking device , of some sort, that prevents the adjustment from changing during machine operation. The example clutch in the photo has a spring loaded pin that is withdrawn to allow an adjustment to be made.

The clutch needs to be adjusted to function as described by Johnk in post #3.
If it is too loose the clutch will slip. If too tight the clutch will not lock "over center" and will release when the operator lets go of the handle.

Those collars both have little sprung loaded pins that lock them. I will just have to keep messing with it. I hope I can tell it works right by just spinning the shaft, it's a pain putting it back in the machine and hooking up the linkages, pulley, belt and chain each time to see if it works. Not sure it even works just spinning by hand, may need more rpm to function correctly.

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Mr.Green · Dec 21, 2019

I adjusted the clutch packs tighter, I now have good positive engagement on high and low, but in the middle or neutral position the shaft will not free spool easily.

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Mr.Green · Dec 21, 2019

My daughter helped me make a couple videos, uploading currently.

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Mr.Green · Dec 21, 2019

Couple videos. First one my 10 year old took.
Hopefully this helps.

High speed now works, but in neutral it's still stuck on low speed and won't free spool.

YouTube

YouTube

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js412000 · Dec 21, 2019

On the first video, I see that one of the plates on the left clutch is bent. The bent plate could be using up the slack in neutral position, but flattens out when the clutch is engaged.

The machine might need a brake to prevent drifting when in neutral, or lighter oil.

Mr.Green · Dec 21, 2019

js412000 said:
On the first video, I see that one of the plates on the left clutch is bent. The bent plate could be using up the slack in neutral position, but flattens out when the clutch is engaged.

The machine might need a brake to prevent drifting when in neutral, or lighter oil.

I see the bent tab you are talking about, that is actually the high speed side which is working. I will pull it back out, and straighten that tab/inspect that plate.

I am running a 80 90w mineral gear oil.

I could go for a lighter weight (not sure how lightweight gear oil gets) or do I use a straight 30w oil? Hydraulic oil? I should have some mobile DTE 45 for my rip saws gear box, but that seems almost as heavy an even more sticky for sure.

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js412000 · Dec 21, 2019

90w gear oil seems way too heavy for a clutch like that.
In the absence of guidance from the manufacturer, I would use light 32 hydraulic oil or automatic transmission fluid.

Mr.Green · Dec 21, 2019

js412000 said:
90w gear oil seems way too heavy for a clutch like that.
In the absence of guidance from the manufacturer, I would use light 32 hydraulic oil or automatic transmission fluid.

I will drain, flush and try hydraulic oil. Should have some light 32 sitting there.

I am basically flying blind on this, fairly rare machine, german, not many in this country, two that I know of.

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Street · Dec 21, 2019

A couple of things come to mind as i have worked on automatic transmissions and transmissions for twin disc which are like this in constant engagement.

The oil is too heavy which has already been noted.

There are warped plates in one pack and none in the other pack, this will mean one pack drags slightly compared to the other so the machine will spin in one direction appearing to be engaged.
warped plates can be from a overload situation where the plates have slipped in turn creating heat and warping or a partial engagement due to wear on plates and the pack not being adjusted.
One thing that can be done without stripping is seeing what size feeler gauge will fit in between the plates of one pack and comparing that to the other pack.
if there is a great difference pull the pack and check the plates for flatness one pack at a time. This is called the stack height clearance done when it is not engaged.
Some times you can get around this a bit by putting half the packs plates in each other or by testing all the plates and putting equally warped plates in both clutches so as to try to achieve the same drag when disengaged.
too much drag will burn the plates out, from the ones i have done it was pressure lubed to the plates and this was not a problem for splash which is likely what you have don't do too much drag.The clutch packs should spin freely when disengaged.
I forget the spec for stack height plate clearance as i did it by feel but i think it was somewhere around 0.010" per plate but could be out as it has been a while.

Any major warping of plates, damaged / worn detents etc will require new parts either custom made or buy from the manufacturer.

there are people who make clutch plates so you may be able to get custom ones made if your stuck, other bits head to a good machine shop.

The mechanism will be some type of over centre situation usually where it will fall into a detent to hold the load on the plates and lever in position, usually there is a nut with a locking bolt or tab that holds the nut in the correct place. One way tightens the pack the other way loosens the pack.
Maybe the detent is worn from use in one direction only you need to check parts for wear.

Mr.Green · Dec 21, 2019

Street said:
A couple of things come to mind as i have worked on automatic transmissions and transmissions for twin disc which are like this in constant engagement.

The oil is too heavy which has already been noted.

There are warped plates in one pack and none in the other pack, this will mean one pack drags slightly compared to the other so the machine will spin in one direction appearing to be engaged.
warped plates can be from a overload situation where the plates have slipped in turn creating heat and warping or a partial engagement due to wear on plates and the pack not being adjusted.
One thing that can be done without stripping is seeing what size feeler gauge will fit in between the plates of one pack and comparing that to the other pack.
if there is a great difference pull the pack and check the plates for flatness one pack at a time. This is called the stack height clearance done when it is not engaged.
Some times you can get around this a bit by putting half the packs plates in each other or by testing all the plates and putting equally warped plates in both clutches so as to try to achieve the same drag when disengaged.
too much drag will burn the plates out, from the ones i have done it was pressure lubed to the plates and this was not a problem for splash which is likely what you have don't do too much drag.The clutch packs should spin freely when disengaged.
I forget the spec for stack height plate clearance as i did it by feel but i think it was somewhere around 0.010" per plate but could be out as it has been a while.

Any major warping of plates, damaged / worn detents etc will require new parts either custom made or buy from the manufacturer.

there are people who make clutch plates so you may be able to get custom ones made if your stuck, other bits head to a good machine shop.

The mechanism will be some type of over centre situation usually where it will fall into a detent to hold the load on the plates and lever in position, usually there is a nut with a locking bolt or tab that holds the nut in the correct place. One way tightens the pack the other way loosens the pack.
Maybe the detent is worn from use in one direction only you need to check parts for wear.

Awesome, this gives me a great list to check off. There is a place local that does custom clutch work, that will be my last resort, if I can get it working correctly, I will just leave it be as it probably won't see much use.

Thank you.

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cyanidekid · Dec 21, 2019

Mr.Green said:
Awesome, this gives me a great list to check off. There is a place local that does custom clutch work, that will be my last resort, if I can get it working correctly, I will just leave it be as it probably won't see much use.

Thank you.

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"custom clutch work" sounds like it will be automotive/ATV and motorcycle type units that typically involve friction material. that is a completely different animal. the closest thing to a machine gearbox clutch is actually going to be an automatic transmission. a talented automatic transmission person is a much better bet than a "clutch" shop.

just for general reference, as a guide to others, please start out with a good general description of your type of machinery, brand, and the problem you are having. you kinda backed into the problem, not well described. not clear. hence the blowback...

Mr.Green · Dec 21, 2019

cyanidekid said:
"custom clutch work" sounds like it will be automotive/ATV and motorcycle type units that typically involve friction material. that is a completely different animal. the closest thing to a machine gearbox clutch is actually going to be an automatic transmission. a talented automatic transmission person is a much better bet than a "clutch" shop.

just for general reference, as a guide to others, please start out with a good general description of your type of machinery, brand, and the problem you are having. you kinda backed into the problem, not well described. not clear. hence the blowback...

I tried to describe in detail what was going on, plus pictures. I know the video helped.

The place is called fort wayne clutch and drivetrain. I am sure I could find someplace to make new if needed.

Clutch & Driveline Rebuilder, Supplier, Remanufacturer - Fort Wayne Clutch & Driveline

I didn't figure anyone here would know what a Bauerle DM71 planer made in 1960 in Germany would be.

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cyanidekid · Dec 21, 2019

no one would know what a planer is? :confused:

just a good point of departure to start with a description of the machine, just sayin'.

" I just flew in on a Starfighter 3600 from Nebulon rulion and my antimatter drive is all screwy" just good to give some context up front!

Gearbox/clutch issue

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