hollow chisel (new tooling from Japan)

Any one from japan that can tell me more on the maker?


Nakahashi Seisakusho Co.,Ltd / Double Axis mortise chisel & Bit Holder

I have been told by a little bird that this is the same maker that Smchmidt's sells but his are single fluted. They are the Japaneses pattern chisel though theses are made of special alloy to prevent breakage from excessive stress under high volume production lines.
Bits have 2 cutting lips, 2 flutes and 1 brad point and HSS tipped for prolonged tool life.these bits are specially designed for full automatic industrial machinery just if your were thinking they were junk. Can't give you any personal opinion as they have not made the north american market but they look to be good. I know of no other double mortise tooling other than Maka swing chisel or chain.

newtoll said:

I have been told by a little bird that this is the same maker that Smchmidt's sells but his are single fluted. They are the Japaneses pattern chisel though theses are made of special alloy to prevent breakage from excessive stress under high volume production lines.
Bits have 2 cutting lips, 2 flutes and 1 brad point and HSS tipped for prolonged tool life.these bits are specially designed for full automatic industrial machinery just if your were thinking they were junk. Can't give you any personal opinion as they have not made the north american market but they look to be good. I know of no other double mortise tooling other than Maka swing chisel or chain.

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The company also makes Star-m drills, which are quite good.

Sizing is quite limited in those two double-drill tools, 6~9mm. They are aimed at the shōji manufacturers for the most part.

Chris Hall said:

The company also makes Star-m drills, which are quite good.

Sizing is quite limited in those two double-drill tools, 6~9mm. They are aimed at the shōji manufacturers for the most part.

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the Star M brand is the one that both Smchmidt's and bobby at woodworker tools works and lee valley sale as high grade Japanese pattern bits. It is the same company and these bits have be made for some 50 odd years by them. as to the web site states the star M are described as "Standard line up" with this build

Manufactured from the finest and select Japanese carbon steel best suited for these tools.
The original Japanese Pattern Disign. Chisels have finely polished cutting blades with sharp pointed and releaved inside corners for stress free clean cutting. The bits have a brad point, one cutting lip and one spur for straight cutting and superb chip ejection.
Conbination of material, design and craftmanship ensures superior performance in soft and hard woods.
Complete specifications to fit most chisel morticers in the world market.
Complete size coverage (3mm to 36mm) to ensure that entire user needs are met.
These best perform
ing tools have been imitated thoughout the world, but never been duplicated in performance

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yes you read that right 3mm!!!!


The new tooling has only been in manufacture sense 2005 and is not the the garbage that most often makes its way to the US. They are described as production bits

These Hollow Sguare Mortise Chisels & Bits are specially designed for full automatic post and beam production lines.Chisels are made of special alloy to prevent breakage from excessive stress under high volume production lines.
Bits have 2 cutting lips, 2 flutes and 1 brad point and HSS tipped for prolonged tool life.
Complete range of specifications for MIYAGAWA, HEIAN, SHODA, NAKAJIMA, SHINX, and TOA Pre-cut lines.

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here is closer look at the bit








as far as i can tell it called a Heian AZ chisel set. But i had to look on the japisese site and translate.

here is what the Japanese site has to say about the tooling.

It is a high-spec model that corresponds to the severe cutting conditions in the factory pre-cut.
Compared with third-party, boasts the "stability that can be used with confidence over a long period of time" and "smooth skin off."
We have gotten good reputation from users like that has good compatibility with difficult-to-cut materials of kiln-dried wood, lumber collection, simultaneously processing the laminated wood and solid wood. Adopts special alloy steel case, we have significantly reduced the cracking of pre-cut processing. Since the cone is adopted high-speed steel, almost no drop off and chipping of the cutting edge compared with carbide, and has realized the smooth cut skin. Trouble is very small even in harsh environments in both case-cone, You can use it with worry over a long period of time. In addition, re-abrasive is also excellent, because it can be used over a long period of time, it will contribute significantly to the cost of your company.

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Can these be ordered from japan?

jack
English machines

Jack-
Is that a general question, or do you have specific size/type in mind?

If no one else steps forward, we have a friend who has been there a couple years teaching English to Japanese. My son just got back from 3 months out in a rural prefecture there with her. So I don't know what familiarity or access to industrial products might be possible but willing to give a yell if no one with more industrial connections responds.

smt

Yes Steve i would like to get this bit here. if there as nice as they look and sound it would be great to have another source other than Clico in the UK supplying the flat bottom bits. The US makers of the British Pattern are all gone. Of course i don't know the cost of the tooling and that would make my mind up. There have been rummer that the Japaneses do not sale some tooling out side the country but that could be there hand tools but there are many machine tools that don't make it hear too. I don't mind the Star M for soft wood but prefer the British pattern for hard wood. these new HN ones sure look the fit and finish of a very nice set so i am intrigued.

Jack,
Checking to see if you had any luck attaining some of the "production" chisel/bit sets.

MIL

MILO74 said:

Jack,
Checking to see if you had any luck attaining some of the "production" chisel/bit sets.

MIL

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I did talk to lee Valley and ask them to contact the supplier. there $500 a set and come in 1/2" only. So i am sticking to NOS.

Nakahashi Mortise Chisels

newtoll said:

Any one from japan that can tell me more on the maker?


Nakahashi Seisakusho Co.,Ltd / Double Axis mortise chisel & Bit Holder

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I have been around the factory in Japan and been selling these for 20 years. The quality is unsurpassed and we have in the past done comparative tests with the English brand Clico ..
This is the test result and specification:
http://scosarg.com/leaflets/NH/TEST REPORT.pdf

Kind regds

Paul
Scott+Sargeant Woodworking Machinery | New & Used Woodworking Machines

Jack-

Sorry, I was waiting to hear a size of interest, and then lost track and never followed through.

Paul-

I have used asian chisel sets in my Greenlee 228 autofeed mortiser for probably 35 years. I was immediately sold on the better performance of that style both in softwoods and hardwoods, with the caveat that the auger in the 1/4" sizes is too thinly proportioned for dense hardwoods such as w. oak, maple, and harder woods; and tends to tear the head off, resulting in a split chisel as the machine continues to feed.



I've even used them to mortise HMWP







So I have little doubt the Japanese set was a superior performer.

That said, your test procedure sucks, and could be perceived as intentionally biased.
If you intend to give a fair test to edge tools, they need to be working in the exact same substrate. You used a fast grown tough grained plank for the clico with alternating thick layers of very dense and very soft wood; and a nice, old growth, close mild grain board for the NH.

The early mortises are not shown, but in the late section, the clico was clearly plunged through a knot several times, and may have been earlier on the other side? There is no evidence the NH was subject to a similar event(s)

Ideally, the test procedure would have used one board, and alternated cuts in it with each chisel. Using 2 boards with such different grain structure as shown would have been even more interesting with alternating cuts by each chisel.

I think for many of us, the question would be how different asian chisel sets stack up against each other. So far, I have not seen a big obvious difference between cheap sets, and the more expensive ones. IOW, are there ones to avoid, and are there ones that are clearly superior in some way that I have not yet noticed.

There may be some NH chisels in my shop, thought I got them at Grizzly in Muncy, but will have to check labels tomorrow. According to NH site, Grizzly is a US dealer, but if so, the ones I stocked up on were on the remainder table a half dozen years ago. Also, Grizzly closed out their Muncy operation this past fall.

Nakahashi Seisakusho Co.,Ltd / HowToBuy

smt

Follow-up on chisel set brand: Looks like the ones I got from the green bear are "Star M" brand. The ones used seem to be great, though I have not used most of them.

Woodworker.com: Optimizephrase If

gloat alert, my 1/2 dozen sets, under $20 ea including the 1" size.

Nice to see they carry 7/16" and 9/16" stock.

My guess is that there is not much of a hobby market in Japan, so most any older company making tools there is probably vetted and geared to professionals. Until the last 20 years & the benchtop mortiser phenomenon, there was not really much of a hobby market for hollow chisel sets anywhere.

smt

scosarg said:

I have been around the factory in Japan and been selling these for 20 years. The quality is unsurpassed and we have in the past done comparative tests with the English brand Clico ..
This is the test result and specification:
http://scosarg.com/leaflets/NH/TEST REPORT.pdf

Kind regds

Paul
Scott+Sargeant Woodworking Machinery | New & Used Woodworking Machines

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Thanks Paul I have seen the test but that's the japanese pattern and not the same chisel bit set.

I agree Steve the japan pattern is good for some things but there not as nicely made as the british pattern like ridgeway or Chilco greenlee forest. there really better suited to run in the slower bench tops mortisers at 1750 rpm where as the old full sized kit ran 3450 rpm. There is no metal at the pointy end before the chip hole for much life or augor support and they burn up fast at high speed on the ends. I hate the fit of the bit to the bore and the augor wanders out side the box more often than not. cuts a very dirty bottom that makes one go deeper too. works for mort mortises that you do not see and there cheap on the pocket book. Very easy to get

The british pattern augor is a much better fit to the bore and stays in the box, runs at high speeds with out burning up and cuts a flat bottom. more like a jenkens pattern drill to some degree. lots of chisel after the pointy end and often chip holes on two side. there often found in 1 1/8" size with long chisels to 6" cutting length even in the 1/2" set

Bad side is they take more power to feed as there just not as pointy but then they don't split open on the ends and or pull wood from the end graind side of the holes.

Mind you there not that slow at cutting if some monkey has not taken a LV diamond cone to sharpen them and destroy the bets interface angle to chisel. Reamers for a brace were made for both the british and japan pattern chiesl angle to sharpen them correctly.

here I am punching a 1" hole in cherry with the Stenner BL and a british pattern greenlee. Need both the foot and arm for that one to drive.

Some may find this interesting, it a tour of clico the last hollow chisel maker in England to close its doors. Very interesting to see them forged and hand made.

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store//store/more/met2012.php?v=v

Star M is a brand of Nakahashi... they use 2 brand names to get around distribution agreements in certain markets.

Btw they were also manufacturing very very high quality Super HSS planer knives for a while using special Japanese steel... They stopped a few years ago as people outside Japan did not appreciate the advantages demand did not make production volume viable

Paul
Scosarg.com

this is the link to the chisels & spare augers
Mortise Chisel & Bits for Morticers at Scott+Sargeant Woodworking Machinery / UK

I agree Steve the japan pattern is good for some things but there not as nicely made as the british pattern like ridgeway or Chilco greenlee forest. there really better suited to run in the slower bench tops mortisers at 1750 rpm where as the old full sized kit ran 3450 rpm. There is no metal at the pointy end before the chip hole for much life or augor support and they burn up fast at high speed on the ends. I hate the fit of the bit to the bore and the augor wanders out side the box more often than not. cuts a very dirty bottom that makes one go deeper too. works for mort mortises that you do not see and there cheap on the pocket book.

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Jack, this is not my experience. I have a drawer full of Greenlee and Forest City & other American made chisels and augers up to 1-1/2" square. I run them in a Greenlee auto-feed mortiser; almost exclusively in hardwoods.

Hands down, the Asian stuff is better....With the minor caveats you or I mentioned before. 1.) I would not call it a "dirty bottom" (see my photos above of flat bottoms including sections, from an asian chisel in plastic) but they do drag more when cleaning the bottoms of a mortise. The point could be removed, I suppose. And the auger could be tuned. 2.) the asian 5/16" but especially 1/4" and under (6mm) augers are too thin/weak/flimsy. I find the larger sizes at least as husky as the American made augers, though.
Actually, I do have a 3rd beef- the asian chisels even 1" all have 3/4" necks, instead of the necks being appropriately large for the size as American chisels are.

You do not seem to be a fan of conventional HC mortising practice?

Both for minimal chisel stress, and to keep the sides of a mortise from collapsing or expanding as it is cut due to wood stress; the general method is to punch each end of a mortise first. Then step off spaces leaving a bridge just under the width of a chisel between each full 4-sided cut. Then go back and cut out the bridges. The idea, I have read from Greenlee, is to always have a chisel cutting on opposite sides for balance, especially as the holes get deep. So a set should either be cutting 4 sides, or 2 opposite sides.

Obviously we all "trim" at times with one side. And a person makes their own adjustments for tool use based on results vs maintenance costs. So it is interesting to see (in your video) that you prefer a "just keep chomping with one leading edge" approach.

smt

good point on the one way across. with the slots facing the way i have them and the size of the chisel it has not made that much of a difference for mortises that are straight. General if i was not showing off i hit both ends and run across. I find the british pattern does not drift with the two spurs on the augor as much as the asian single . I have not looked but i think the chisel wall is thicker on the british pattern as well . I use them both but and like the british pattern in my machine.

stephen thomas said:

Jack, this is not my experience. I have a drawer full of Greenlee and Forest City & other American made chisels and augers up to 1-1/2" square. I run them in a Greenlee auto-feed mortiser; almost exclusively in hardwoods.

Hands down, the Asian stuff is better....With the minor caveats you or I mentioned before. 1.) I would not call it a "dirty bottom" (see my photos above of flat bottoms including sections, from an asian chisel in plastic) but they do drag more when cleaning the bottoms of a mortise. The point could be removed, I suppose. And the auger could be tuned. 2.) the asian 5/16" but especially 1/4" and under (6mm) augers are too thin/weak/flimsy. I find the larger sizes at least as husky as the American made augers, though.
Actually, I do have a 3rd beef- the asian chisels even 1" all have 3/4" necks, instead of the necks being appropriately large for the size as American chisels are.

You do not seem to be a fan of conventional HC mortising practice?

Both for minimal chisel stress, and to keep the sides of a mortise from collapsing or expanding as it is cut due to wood stress; the general method is to punch each end of a mortise first. Then step off spaces leaving a bridge just under the width of a chisel between each full 4-sided cut. Then go back and cut out the bridges. The idea, I have read from Greenlee, is to always have a chisel cutting on opposite sides for balance, especially as the holes get deep. So a set should either be cutting 4 sides, or 2 opposite sides.

Obviously we all "trim" at times with one side. And a person makes their own adjustments for tool use based on results vs maintenance costs. So it is interesting to see (in your video) that you prefer a "just keep chomping with one leading edge" approach.

smt

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2.) the asian 5/16" but especially 1/4" and under (6mm) augers are too thin/weak/flimsy.

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I have down to 3mm hollow chisel size, and yes, you can't slam them down, but they are no more "too flimsy" than is a hand chisel in the more delicate sizes under 1/4". You have to treat the tiny sizes a little more carefully, that is all, and they work fine, even in very hard woods. That's been my experience at least. I've punched 3mm peg mortises into bubinga dozens of times and the tool is undamaged. I've also used them in ebony, lignum vitae....

Chris Hall said:

I have down to 3mm hollow chisel size, and yes, you can't slam them down, but they are no more "too flimsy" than is a hand chisel in the more delicate sizes under 1/4". You have to treat the tiny sizes a little more carefully, that is all, and they work fine, even in very hard woods. That's been my experience at least. I've punched 3mm peg mortises into bubinga dozens of times and the tool is undamaged. I've also used them in ebony, lignum vitae....

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Its a good point to feel your way with the chisel Chris something power feed will never do for you. The first hole is the hardest(4sides) and you need to go slower on the feed but when you run across(3 sides) there easier on the chisel and feed is not as hard.I tend to like the sensitivity of hand bar lever feed over foot feed or power feed too as i can fell how hard the chisel is working.