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OT: Oldestglue in the world 8300 years old

Bill D

Diamond
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Location
Modesto, CA USA
Off Topic?: Oldest glue in the world found in the middle east. Sounds like the hide glue you can still buy today. Hide glue was in common use 75 years ago. It is the wood glue that has to be kept warm to stay liquid.
Still used because it sets quick and can be warmed up and things taken apart.
Bill D
 
Also still the cheapest, I reckon -used for cardboard boxes, packing tape, lick-em stamps, and (at least until recently) a light coating on new paper money to give it that nice crispy feel.

We use it in guitar repair because it is heat-resistant, will never "cold creep," it stains wood less than other glues, and for a variety of other reasons. One common misconception is that hide glue wood joints come apart easily with mild heat. Heat and moisture, yes, but good hide glue joints can be really difficult to separate without damage.
 
"Can still buy today"?

Maybe. I use the pre-mixed liquid tyoe for non-critical things such as gluing down felt (I have cake hide glue also). But, when I went to the store I last bought it at, I was met by blank stares, like I was crazy.

They didn't know there had ever been such a thing, and thought it was a bad idea anyway. They tried to steer me to the regular white glues.

I had previously been able to buy it even at the "big box" stores. But not anymore, apparently.

Is this some sort of plot by the vegans, vegetarians and their ilk?
 
I'm not sure that actually is the oldest glue. I suspect that melted pitch and wax/pitch mixtures date back to the earliest use of tools and fire.

Of course since none of us were there we really can't be sure and organic substances in wetter climates don't last as long as stuff from drier climes.

JST,

Liquid hide glue is still available from the woodworking stores and even some hardware stores. I suspect the big box stores don't carry it due to low demand.
 
Something in Science magazine............Neanderthals used a tar extracted from hot birch bark to fasten points to shafts.

Tim in D
 
I've used Resorcinol glue for wood several times. Strong & waterproof, but they say it doesn't fill gaps very well.

Wikipedia says it was introduced in 1943. Not the easiest to find today in stores.
 
"Can still buy today"?

Maybe.

Actually, you can get the powdered stuff (here) that you mix with water and heat (per Frank's comment that you need water and heat to melt it). This is often kept in a heated glue pot. Apply promptly and let cool and dry.

detail.jpg
 
Hide glue is gelatin. Knox unflavored gelatin is a decent grade of hide glue for woodworking, although it's not the best for that use. There are various producers of gelatin for food, and other uses, but only one hide glue plant in North America - Milligan and Higgins. They make it by the ton: http://www.milligan1868.com and sell it in fifty-und bags if you want to buy it direct as I have. It's also available in 1-lb cans from any number of resellers like Behlen. Nothing like it for all kinds of uses, but it really does have a learning curve, because if it is allowed to cool before full clamp pressure is applied, it has very little strength as a wood glue joint.
 
The stained glass guys next door coat glass with because it forms a strong bond and then shrinks. The result is a chipped surface as it pulls them off. Aside from lead free materials, they are working almost the same way window makers did in the middle ages.

Bill
 
Phew!
Comments above led me to worry than Mr Bjorn had given up the ghost! (No idea how old he actually is. Could be younger than me, but did not sound like it in the past)

I have had to use a lot of hot hide glue for various historic reproductions of flooring components, borders and parquets in old government buildings. (Office of the Treasurer of the US, Secretary of War office, etc, etc) Last was 7 or 8 years ago, but I still have a file drawer full of various grades. (gram strengths).

Never bought any anwyere else but Bjorn Industries. Used to be a 5 lb minimum each grade. But the funny thing is, you could call up on the phone and order 10 or 15 lbs, and he would ship it before there was time to get the check out. Real old-fashioned business practices.

Bjorn Hide Glue - Hide Glue, Hide Glue for Sale, Bjorn Hide Glue

Per some comments above, I never tried it but read in several places that Knox clear unflavored gelatine is actually a very high grade of glue. Just don't mix it to the same amount of water than is specified for jello, though. Glue is much more closey defined ratio, correlated to the specific gram strength rating of the raw flakes.

smt

PS, one of the things passed down to me in the family is a bow (archery) made with sinew and hide glue that is old enough to be faced with dragon's skin on one side. Or at least that was what was told when we were kids...:)
 
Also still the cheapest, I reckon -used for cardboard boxes, packing tape, lick-em stamps, and (at least until recently) a light coating on new paper money to give it that nice crispy feel.

We use it in guitar repair because it is heat-resistant, will never "cold creep," it stains wood less than other glues, and for a variety of other reasons. One common misconception is that hide glue wood joints come apart easily with mild heat. Heat and moisture, yes, but good hide glue joints can be really difficult to separate without damage.

Yes, as Mr. Ford says it can be really difficult to get a well done hide glue joint apart.
An interesting aspect of it that others have not mentioned yet is that, at least with most woods, the joints will be less visible than with other glues if everything fits properly.
I expect at least some disbelief... :)


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Hide glue is very easy to find. Any woodworking supplier like Woodcraft sells it. There are different grades,but usually they only list one strength. I got a bag of hide glue "pearls" so transparent they will make an invisible joint. I worked in a museum,and got the bag from the furniture conservators. IT IS A FACT that Wurlitzer uses Knox gelatin for glue on their harps. It makes darned near invisible joints even on unstained maple! Wurlitzer told me that. I was working on one of their harps at the time. Some of the workmen use it with sugar for a lunch time dessert! Harps have a huge amount of stress on them !

Hide glues are the best for musical instruments because it is "transparent " to vibrations. The liquid hide glue you can buy in bottles doesn't get as hard as cooked hide glue. A hide glue pot should NEVER EXCEED 140º. 130 is even better. Some people use a electric crock pot,which is cheaper than the $130.00 real electric pots. I put water in my electric glue pot,and put the glue and its water in the water of the glue pot. It melts the hide glue perfectly but keeps the nice pot from getting glue all over it. I can put the small jar of hide glue in the fridge,too. But,it ROTS after about 3 to 4 days. So,I mix it in not too large batches. You need to let the glue dissolve overnight at room temperature before putting it into the hot water.
 
I understood that hide glue etc. was made from hoofs of animals.
Any colour or links or howto ?
Just as a matter of interest.

Resorcinol is supposed to need close fitting joints, and pressure, and then be pretty strong.

What about hide glue ?

I know it was widely used in the past and worked well, so it seems it was the "epoxy" or "araldite" or its times.

Afaik, hide glue is heated, applied, the parts are pressed together, left, and next day you have a strong joint.
Is this right ?
 
I understood that hide glue etc. was made from hoofs of animals.

In North America, hide glue is made from beef skins, other gelatin from pig skins. It can be made from a wide variety of animals including, rabbits, fish, and other innocent critters.

Any colour or links or howto ?

There are dozens of how-to videos on YouTube, but considering the last price I paid was a touch over $1.00 a pound including freight (OK, so it was 15 years ago), I doubt I'd ever want to bother. It keeps forever if it doesn't get wet, so I broke up a coupla fifty pound bags into small containers and tossed them up in the attic.

Resorcinol is supposed to need close fitting joints, and pressure, and then be pretty strong.

What about hide glue ?

It's more important to have close fitted joints with hide glue than with resorcinol.




I know it was widely used in the past and worked well, so it seems it was the "epoxy" or "araldite" or its times.

Hide glue has virtualy no cohesive strength, so it is absolutely NOT like epoxy, which cures by polymerization or other chemical reaction and becomes a solid strong mass. Hide glue hardens by evaporation only. In its hardened state it is brittle and crumbly.


Afaik, hide glue is heated, applied, the parts are pressed together, left, and next day you have a strong joint.
Is this right ?

Hide glue needs to be warm to be workable, and below about 95 degrees F, it doesn't stick to much of anything. Joints must be fully clamped before they cool below that temp. Clamp it too late, and the joint is near worthless by comparison. Lightly stressed wood joints can be "pressed" by hand, but there is a learning curve to the work, and it pays to know what you're doing. The literature often recommends about 100psi clamping pressure

The literature is on the stuff is mostly written for industry, and cautions like the heating temperature are based on glue pots under heat all day long. It CAN handle overheating (even boiling) for short periods, so some of us use it by heating in a microwave just before application. A quick blast of heat does no harm. We mix it with water, heat untli creamy, keep it refrigerated or frozen in little take-out hot sauce cups ready for use. Nuke it for a few seconds and it's ready to do a job.

There's lots to say about hide glue. . . .
 
I really liked hide glue for the ability to make fast rubbed joints. You basically spread the glue, then rub the two pieces together to get the excess out until it grabs. It's still a strong joint, but not invisible. We used to to glue up but jointed layers that were then stack laminated to make carcasses to veneer over. I would have like to use it more but for furniture we needed more open time.

I've thought about making heated cauls so i could laminate banjo rims with it, curious if there is any tonal difference. I've used the old titebond and plastic (urea) resin glue, no difference there. Frankin's catalyzed PVA Multibond had a distinctly inferior tap tone.

I'm curious, how long does the frozen glue last in the freezer? Seems like a great way to go if you only need small amounts now and then. For the same reason I freeze chicken stock in an ice cube tray for cooking. Wouldn't want to get them confused tho...
 
Hide glue sometimes has a bit of preservative to avoid mold, etc. That stuff can last for most of a year in the refrigerator, but the glue I have tends to get furry in a few weeks. In the freezer? I dunno, but maybe a really long time.

For sure I wouldn't waste the time laminating banjo rims with hide glue, unless it's liquid hide glue. Tonal difference, well I put that in the myth category. . .
 
Unfortunately “Liquid Hide” glue has a shelf life. I don’t recall how long it is, but after that time it becomes rather humidity sensitive and joints under any stress will come apart. Fortunately I had a practical lesson in that early in my wood working days.
I wouldn’t use it for anything at all important and don’t have any in my shop.


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