OT woodworking combo machine

any opinions good/bad on the robland (laguna) x31, or it's new generation nx31? that and the minimax 300 are both in my price range, felder, hammer etc are very nice...but my budget is around 8k. taking my little woodshop in a different direction...since i need to upgrade my TS. thanks
scott

I don't know about these first hand but I did find this site that looked interesting...... from what I do know of Euro Woodworking stuff I agree with some of it...

http://www.roltru.com/x31.htm#Cost

What I do know is have some INCA machines and really like them.... but I don't use them hard every day....

Never owned one but my impressions of playing around with a couple that were used (at live auctions) were that they were just "ok" quality wise...kinda better than Chinese but not as good as the best Taiwanese iron. Then again woodworking machines aren't rocket science so it would probably be fine, esp for light use.

I have a Felder muti machine lying around the shop and am not all that impressed with that either. Compromises have to be made to be "multi"...fences not as nice as stand along machines, planer not as nice as stand alone...things like that.

Always better to have seperate machines unless you are super tight on space. Even then it would be better to have seperate machines and have them all on castors and roll them all against each other in one big pile, and seperate from pile as needed !

If you have the space for seperate machines and find yourself drawn to these things anyway because the are "neat" and "ingenious" and maybe even "cool"...resist, you must resist. They are neat, ingenious, and cool but that wears thin pretty quickly after you have to change from one tool to the next and right back to the same tool a few times.

thank you..the new nx31 looks nice..dont know of the difference between models..they still list the x31 on the site but when you click on it, links to the nx31.
http://www.lagunatools.com/nx31.htm
it seems the higher priced machines nickle-dime you on options...you only get a base machine (that is similar to the x31) for like 11k, then you gotta add all the "recc. options" reminds me why i hate car shopping
scott

yep im heading toward the "pile idea" atm. and frankly my crappy ts, crappy 13 planer, and crappy 7 jointer, are not a joy to use. space is a bit tight and looking at what i would spend with sep. machines, with space..and the rate that i woodwork..a combo would be fine. any pics of that felder? im waiting for a laguna video to be sent so i can at least "see" how hit works
scott

I am a "professional" woodworker making everything from acoustic guitars to millwork as interest and the bottom line dictates.

My shop space is 500 square feet and includes a 120 sqft spray room. I have a workbench, drill press, industrial pin router (SMC), 6" x 48" edge sander, oscillating spindle sander, 22" thickness sander, 18" bandsaw, 12/36 lathe, and a 10" cabinet saw. My point is that I am crowded and space is at a premium.

Previously I had a 16" planer and an 8" jointer; both Tiawanese. The jointer was good, the planer - barely satifactory. That being said I used them for over 10 years and they required little attention.

I replaced both of these machines with the Minimax 300. I bought the slot mortising attachment as well. I paid $6000 CDN net for this machine. I did not get the tersa head because it wasn't on the showroom floor at the time; otherwise I would have ponied up the extra $200 CDN.

This machine is FANTASTIC. It actually has a smaller footprint than the old 8" jointer. I keep the mortising attachment on a dedicated cart and attach it when needed (this attachment is also worth every penny - it really speeds up joinery without quality compromises). I have saved the floor space of the 16" planer plus.

Quality? There is no comparison to the old machines. The electrics are light years advanced. The castings and machining are worlds apart. I have pulled this machine apart and the attention to detail is in every unseen nook and cranny. This machine mills wood far better than the old jointer and planer.

This is the third Italian machine I have owned and they have all performed very well. The Europeans are at the forefront when it comes to small shop woodworking machines. The days of huge castings are behind us; sheet metal chasis and select castings are here to stay. The quality of the cut has improved so what do I care if my machine doesn't weight 600 pounds more...

I still have three machines on casters; this is unavoidable in my small space. The changeover time on my Minimax is significantly faster than rolling out the old planer.

Felder, very nice and very expensive. The Hammer is in the same price range as the Minimax but it has a shorter jointer table and it looked to be a bit crude compared to the Minimax. I have a Laguna bandsaw and I do not like the company, the machine is fine.

I researched these machines for a couple of years, talking to manufacturers and end users. I am a fan of stand alone equipment but when it is not possible...

Most of the people who dissed these combos either never used one or had a giant shop with a jointer and a planer. Opinions - of questionable worth.

My only regret is that I didn't switch over sooner. I sold my Tiawanese equipment and that paid for 20% of the Minimax.

One last thing. I have worked on European 20" jointers and 24" planers for years as an employee. They were solid machines in a tough environment.

I don't think that you will be disappointed if you make the move.

chrisf, I think in all the years I've been reading forums on the web, you are the first person I've noticed to be enthuseastic about a multi machine after using one for awhile.

Usually the attitude from those that have them is "yeah, now that I've used it some I'd prefer seperate machines, but I am really tight on space and it gets me by"

You sure you're not stockholder in SCMI/Minimax ??

i dont know don..i have been searching on the web...and reading..not for years..but at least months...other than minor complaints..like a fence issue...or adjustment issue..etc (same complaints you could have on any machine) the people, for the most part, that own them seem to really like them. even multi person shops (which seems like a waste) are quoted as liking them, but understanding they have to more careful about setups so work does not come to a halt. there also do not seem to be very many on the used market..i dont know what that means..but it may mean that many like to hold onto them. i dunno but from what i have seen these combos may be different in nature than our hated 3-1's! i also looked at the minimax the price for the lab 300 is the exact same as the laguna so i most likey will have to go back and forth to get the best deal. also i think both of their websites suck..one static pic of each machine...just one angle..laguna bit better..and if you want more info..ya gotta write them...and put in a phone number (must be put in) or they dont send the info and dvd) anyway rant over
scott

Plasticos, what are your objectives with the machine(s)? You note that the impetus is fueled by needing a "better tablesaw" can you define what a "good" tablesaw would be for your uses?

Is 3phase acceptable or not?

Can you afford to shop auctions, like the routine IRS auctions? or does that have absolutely no appeal?

smt

Just for kicks where does a Powermatic 66 tablesaw come in on the good/bad scale?

As a noob woodwhacker (which I've basically given up) that seemed to be tied up there somewhere in desirability with a Delta Unisaw, course I got the PM because of the left-tilting blade, before Uni came out with its left-tilter option.

I recognize there are better names out there and very few ww shops that used a TS constantly would select a PM...

So what's "good" and what's "suspect" on the tree? Or maybe what's the "crappy" saw you're trying to kick to the curb?

Hey Don, I can't can't believe that I would be entusiastic about the combo machine either. Part of the reason I listed my shop equipment was to illustrate the fact that I like seperate machines.

Your caster idea has it's own weakness and believe me I lived it for well over 10 years. Not only do you have to move the machine you have to plug it in. This is just as vile as switching over the combo.

From a maintenace point of view I have half the motors and belts and the knives are the same size so I have half the knives (2 sets instead of 4; 2 each for the jointer planer).

I would definetly have two seperate machines if I could but space is the limiting factor. Budget would certainly come to bear as well with two machines of this quality.

My metal working machinery is all seperate and I would never consider it any other way. Well my little Nichols horizontal mill has a Nichols vertical head (thanks to George Wilson!)...

My only stock was Enron, I ride Ducatis, I am a "Plastic" forum member and now when I think of it I feel pretty ashamed of myself. I would like to change my Practical Machinist identity to ComboCat or perhaps Slimwhittleman...

To clarify my previous sermon I would never give up my seperate table saw. In a small shop the 10" cabinet saw is the jack of all trades: ripcut, crosscut, dado, joinery, cove moulding even. Jointer/planer/slot mortiser combo acceptable.

Powermatic 66, Delta Unisaw and General 150 are all classics, pick your favourite colour...

hey steve...
well i have a piece of crap 10 inch contractor saw..ok, but is not a cabinet saw..too loud, light, poor hp, and the list goes on..it is what i could afford at the time..footprint is nice tho. so that was sold..and it has come time for a bigger saw...looking at the 66/unisaw/ older rockwell..while i know these come up as deals sometimes but it seems it will cost me between 1-2k depending on options...new-ness, etc so figuring 1500 with nice fence etc..then picturing that in my shop..space is even more at a premium. i also see the need in the near future, to upgrate my jointer/planer..so in putting it all together..that drove me toward the combo unit. for me draggin things out and plugging them in is also unsatisfactory....anyway that is kinda why im bouncing ideas off of all of you. and i new don had some experience with the combos. and btw chris..thanks for the info..and you also seemed to have moved now to "brass" ...gratz..grin
scott

Well now I'm really getting somewhere! Maybe my new PM moniker should be Silly Brasstard?

I'd like to modify Stephen Thomas' question and ask what type of woodworking are you doing? Is it to used to make a living or a hobby? Are you doing large casework or small furniture, or..?

I've been a serious woodworker for about 15 years now and have had various sized shops. From 500 sq ft to my current 2000 sq ft. It has been strickly a hobby for the last 6 years and is my means of relaxation after working in the factory all week.

If I were to start building for profit again I would look for a space with modest rent and stay with dedicated machines. If it were a hobby and space was limited and time of delivery was not a factor I would look at more hand tools. I have a large shop now with a Delta cabinet saw, 16" radial arm, 2 planers, 20" dual drum sander, several band saws, huge General 210 mortising machine, shapers, etc, etc. Along with all of Norms tools I have seemed to fallen into enjoyment of fine, quiet hand tools. Jointing a board with an old Stanley 8 only takes a few strokes, jointery is easly done with a fine saw and good chisels. I even have a large cabinet full of molding planes that gets used.

All that said, have you considered a more traditional aproach? Years ago I looked at the x31 and gave it some consideration. My thought was that I would spend a lot of time switching from one function to the next. I'm fortunate now that I have a large shop and find that a project flows quite nice when every thing stays set-up and dedicated through the project.

If I had to scale back I would stay with a solid table saw (cabinet), 16" band saw and a good bench. I would buy my stock planned and use hand tools.

My 2 cents


Matt,I got a good deal on my older Delta saw and it works quite well. If I had a choice I would get the Powermatic with the left tilt. Another option is that I may even consider the Saw Stop saw -but that is only because of a recent injury and avoiding any future injuries with my sons. The General looks like a nice saw as well- and it's green, not that yucky gold color.


Luke

Avoid the combo machines. They are $h1t. Jointer/planer only combo, not bad. Complete with tablesaw, shaper, and mortiser - sucks. The rip fences are absolutely miserable, and the changeover IS a big deal.

I can't imagine a professional woodworker wanting to deal with a combo. Every minute you waste d1cking around with the machine, you be building another piece and selling it.

Take 45 minutes/day of pointless changeover time (don't underestimate the time it takes to set up powerfeeders and cross cut fences), multiplied by 250 days/year. That's a lot of time... a lot of money.

I guess you can make up for that lost time by not logging on to PM. But PM is fun... changing functions on a machine is not.

The Robland (only seen and played with one) was less of a combo machine than many others. Seems seperate machines sharing a stand. Seperate motors, stuff like that. For a combo, the only one I would even consider, but not much of an expert. Seemed nicely made as well.

However, I'm a big fan of good used American iron. It's EASY to find a 16" or so Tanny, Northfield, Fay Egan, Delta 12/14, big Powermatic, whatever, for under a grand. EXTREMELY nice tablesaws.

Matt, the PM 66 is a little heavier than a pUnisaw and generally recognized as a little nicer. But it's alot like the fight between hunters on what's the perfect deer rifle...

Tools

"pUnisaw"

LMAO

Some don't laugh at that... in fact, just for fun, put that word in a post over at owwm.org and it'll magically turn into "Unisaw, the best saw ever made"! Clever html encoding I guess.

I, however, L'edMAO when I first saw it as well!

Tools (owner of 18" Northfield #4...grunt grunt grunt)

this is hobby only, i agree the roblan is similar to that large old combo metalworking machine..name escapes me but is pretty cool...think they were found on ships..pretty much individual units sharing a stand. i agree you can find a pUnisaw, for round about a grand..but less often with a real fence etc..1500 is closer around here..not that 500 bucks matters...then maybe a combo planer/jointer to save some room...never see those used so new run around 3k with any capacity..mortiser is nice...ive done fine with my drillpress and delta mortise bits..tho a bit clunky/light and often look for a better way..so that is a wash.. i do have a nice router/jointech fence table system...but using large pieces on it is dangerous..and have to make sure table is secured..etc ..i just dunno...maybe i want a new machine too. will watch the dvd when it comes, and think about it.
scott