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  1. #41
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    This keeps getting better and better – the guy just came by and dropped off all the trunk lines – 6 inch spiral steel, still new in the cartons.
    I’m happy as a clam – what a nice guy.

    It’s this system- “12.5 drops”
    means I suppose that it will pull chips 12.5 feet vertically :

    Penn State Tempest Cyclone | WOOD Magazine

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Speaking of "not used" old machines, did you ever find a USE for that - what was it? B&S? "all manual" height-vernier I dropped-off so you could get more accurate measurement on that "emergency" shaft (D1-4 4-Jaw was same trip..) than a tape-measure allows?

    I don't need it back - I am still in "surplus", but it can be useful to someone, I'm sure.
    Bill!
    A emergency rush job came up immediately and the old Brown and Sharpe was put to good use.

    I turns out the wife was in crisis as a young bitch was very near the minimum shoulder height for the breed standard and she needed a “wicket” to measure the bitch and settle the matter.

    I assured her I could capture the top line to a thousand or so and remove all doubts.

    She passed and has just now dropped a litter....

    3b70e7fa-d82d-4e28-b803-141ea595c07d.jpg

    Domestic tranquillity restored Bill- I am seriously in your debt.
    And for you bystanders-
    Bill was referring to a tight spot I has in the shop when the big bandsaw threw a wheel when the shaft broke right at the root of the taper.
    Friday night, middle of resawing a bunch of teak for a rush decking job.
    I HAD to turn another shaft and get that saw running that weekend.
    Bill was a serious stand up guy.
    He was tired of telling me to toss the three jaw I was using which couldn’t hold concentric well enough to do the job so drove out to my shop with a four jaw chuck suitable for the work.
    He also brought out this height gauge.

    With Bills help and another PMer who had a stick of the steel I needed I was able to make the shaft and got the saw up and running for Monday:

    90255e02-df9b-4fac-9ce9-478ca0fccbb7.jpg

    f9cb3dfb-9f5c-4e27-bbb5-412e5a816910.jpg

    19c0cbf4-57b9-45c9-989c-9487034a77d6.jpg

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Bill- I am seriously in your debt.
    "Nali, nali!" .. the "thinking out of the box" entertainment you share back with the community is priceless towards keeping us hide-bound-mind Old Farts a tad more mentally flexible!

    A dead-nuts-accurate "bitch wicket". Whom ever wudda thunk it!

    If'n I had me one of those, I mought have avoided a crowded-beadroom first marriage by measuring remaining "tread depth", and wondering about the early wear!



    Anyway.. it was only a moderately USED Chinese 4-jaw.

    My twin replacements are NOS Swedish!


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    Bill- that four jaw is still on the lathe.
    Some folk are hard headed.
    Remembrr all the winging I was going through?
    Countless threads-
    “Can I salvage a three jaw scroll chuck by grinding”...
    I leaned the lesson.
    Finally...
    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Bill- that four jaw is still on the lathe.
    Some folk are hard headed.
    Remembrr all the winging I was going through?
    Countless threads-
    “Can I salvage a three jaw scroll chuck by grinding”...
    I leaned the lesson.
    Finally...
    Thanks
    Thing is, besides a scroll only being "perfect" briefly, even a three-jaw INDEPENDENT would be partially crippled. It has to derive its grip off force-vectors generated at an angle. Sketch the simple triangles for that and do the math.

    The 4-Jaw sets are directly opposed. Roughly double the grip is "there" if the work can stand it.

    Most of all, the limit to TIR of a 4-jaw is only your own patience. The works can be in SORRY condition, yet still be "adjustable" to hit any number you actually need, even if one has to shim or such. TIR isn't, after all, always critical anyway. So the 4-J isn't always all that slow, either.

    I own one 3-J "by accident", that I can't seem to give way. One magnetic. One 2-jaw. One six-jaw. And about a dozen 4-J, 4" to 10", some in "pairs" so I can leave one with jaws reversed.

    "Round stuff"? More than a few collet systems for that.

    I don't NEED all this stuff. It's similar to my wife buying all those pairs of high-end footwear despite having only one pair of feet.

    She remembers when there wasn't even money for straw sandals much as I remember having dreadful shite for lathes and mills, and no decent tooling, either! I was only barefoot, summertimes, and even that only briefly!



    Good job I was never as starved for sex as she was for footwear, though - or they'd have to lock me up in me "overly acquisitive" dotage!


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  8. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post

    It’s this system- “12.5 drops”
    means I suppose that it will pull chips 12.5 feet vertically :
    Before going to the work of installing, do take a look at the site previously referenced and/or some other source of duct design. Not rocket science, but depending upon machine (chips versus dust and volume of stuff) you want to size properly for airflow/velocity. You can drive yourself nuts and not know why.

    Only actual use I've ever had for that compressible fluid flow course from 68.

    Dale

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  10. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckfarmer27 View Post
    Before going to the work of installing, do take a look at the site previously referenced and/or some other source of duct design. Not rocket science, but depending upon machine (chips versus dust and volume of stuff) you want to size properly for airflow/velocity. You can drive yourself nuts and not know why.

    Only actual use I've ever had for that compressible fluid flow course from 68.

    Dale
    Thanks.

    I am putting the pieces of one thing at least- that is remembering where I was at when I built the shop 15 years ago.
    I remember now that I had read over that site referenced above and actually have some parts from a kit the author used to offer- I have the cyclone body, impeller and some small parts bought NIB second hand.
    It’s the kit nature of the thing that killed the project..
    I reviewed his site again ands it’s his information which suggests appropriate power for given fan diameter and duct size.
    In summary his take is that chip collection is a simple achievable goal while collection and more importantly capture of fines is tough to accomplish.

    His key observation:
    -Small shops do not follow long established commercial practices of using the cyclone to capture chips and venting exhaust to out of doors taking the fines off property.
    -Small shop cyclones he calls “dust pumps” as he feels they simply circulate fines through shop and give a false sense of protection.
    -Small shop cyclones are under powered so do not push sufficient CFM to capture fines at machine.
    -New canisters on small shop cyclones do capture the fines but add considerable maintenance burden.

    Given his comments (which seem reasonable), I am going to provide for a gated Y to exhaust from cyclone direct to out of doors when possible.

    I still have not gathered from his site the particulars of duct sizing as he contradicts himself several times on different parts of site (I assume he wrote that tome during his learning curve...)
    I will look about and get sorted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    I will look about and get sorted.
    You have the brain for it. Read the ASHRAE Handbook. "Rapid scanning" mode will serve. You'll be "inventorying" for reference use, memorization not required. Some things do change.

    Home | ashrae.org

    There's only four volumes, not the big fat block of dead-tree mass I bought ages ago. They are now even available online.

    AFTER but one end-to-end go, you will then know where to find the real deal on ducting and everything ELSE whenever you need the latest wisdom, need to seek a quote, evaluate same, or weight "DIY".

    Pragmatic, real-world wisdom, written by and for the actual implementors of it all.

    Saved me - and three employers - serious money, well over forty years and still counting, that exercise did. It was akin to learning how to use a library or a desk calculator. All-around useful, massive buildings, small ones, private residences - even improved understanding of RV, marine, aircraft, and motor-vehicle goods, to be modified, upgraded, or simply better maintained.

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    My first cuppa has opened my eyes bill.
    True insights this morning-
    I am going to follow the Medieval practice of setting candles on the machine tool tables to burn off the fine dust.

    The old ways are the best..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    My first cuppa has opened my eyes bill.
    True insights this morning-
    I am going to follow the Medieval practice of setting candles on the machine tool tables to burn off the fine dust.

    The old ways are the best..
    Yeah... One of Hollywood's sound-stage operators - Universal Studios it may have been - thought so until they set fire to the facility, first go.

    ISTR it was Olympia Beer as wanted a commercial pitching old-skewl craftsmanship.

    So they contracted a legendary glass artist. Me late Uncle. He didn't need the money nor any further fame but thought it an interesting diversion to build a portable glass furnace, melt, gather, and blow exactly ONE beer-bottle on-camera, by hand! Even did it for about half his actual cost.

    BFD. This is a guy accused of buying a new "full shield" Cadillac whenever the ash-trays got full (wasn't so but the one time, car being a bit of a lemon..). Or of buying his wife only the steering wheel when she said the smaller wheel made a new one attractive! That, he DID do, Christmas wrap and all! But also had her new Caddy parked outside as it wouldn't fit under the Christmas tree.

    The studio technoidal staff would not LISTEN when he told them how much heat came off even a tiny glass furnace!

    What the Hell could some West Virginia Hillbilly who had quit school at 7th grade because he'd rather be a multimillionaire than a school teacher - and DONE it - possibly know?



    They rebuilt. Got 'er done, second go on a larger stage with some modifications. Asbestos curtains, so it was "a while ago"!

    Mind yer combustible "fines".

    You don't really want to find out "the hard way" what some of we "damned beavers" already know the maths for doing with sawdust, coal dust, ignorant baking flour, sugar. Or worse-yet - dried chickn shit.

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    I guess I need basic data-
    What CFM can the unit I have produce at assembled system pressure to maintain the required 4000 LFM in the trunk.
    Sort of a problem as I need to discover optimal size of trunk so as to not restrict flow and yet not fall below LFM needed.
    Must be a sweet spot for the unit I have eh?

    14” standard fan pushed at 3400 by 2.5hp
    I need data ...lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    I guess I need basic data-
    What CFM can the unit I have produce at assembled system pressure to maintain the required 4000 LFM in the trunk.
    Sort of a problem as I need to discover optimal size of trunk so as to not restrict flow and yet not fall below LFM needed.
    Must me a sweet spot for the unit I have eh?

    14” standard fan pushed at 3400
    I need data ...lol
    You first need to know what TYPE of impeller you are working with. Some suck well. Some blow well. Some just stir shit up and do neither with much "directable" effect one can make much use of. A "Hunter" ceiling fan ain't much use for dust control, and comfort only "maybe".

    What static or head pressure there is either side makes a HUGE diff, too. Impellers have "stall" points, and they are not all the same.

    Even if you read the book and grok all that? It still comes down to "suck it and see" on anything already to-hand, "optimal" or not.

    Not a terribly cold day today. Go try it out.

    Because THAT is the other part of the equation. Cost to cover the "make-up" heat or cooling load off the loss generated by "full loss" extraction. "Full Loss" and all-the-time was EXACTLY what I designed into W.Bell's Rockville HQ joolry manufacturing facility. We worked with cyanides.

    Not what you might want, fine woods, temperature and humidity-sensitive material, adhesives, sealants, and finishes.

    Now yah see why I bought the filtered units.

    Those can extract down to Micron level, yet preserve and recirculate the therms, even humidity-level - any season neutral- heat or chilling some other gadget's rice bowl, "fresh" or "make-up" air exchange rates controlled independently as well.

    I did mention the ASHRAE Handbook? That weren't a joke.

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  17. #53
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    Thanks Bill.
    My boat carpentry shop is decidedly non fussy.
    I could do this work in a barn with pot belly stove and the doors wide open weather permitting.
    I need some warmth in winter for the odd glueups and some cooling in summer so I survive.
    Dimensional stability is not a factor in the work.
    Window ac and little oiled filled heater to take the chill off is all I have and need.
    For the short machine runs I do I am guessing I can just exhaust most times.
    As you say- the system needs stood up and assessed.
    The ducting is a job so I want the basic system to be correct- I can upgrade as needed the motor/cyclone.
    You’ve seen the shop- as bad as the dust is we are not talking a large shop and just me running machines so this shouldn’t be hard to beat.

    Bill on that site suggests that all the woodworking systems are just borrowed designs from agricultural separation systems.
    It appears the fans are off the shelf components the makers of these units design around.

    I am reading up on this site:
    Dust Collection Information – Air Handling Systems

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    You’ve seen the shop- as bad as the dust is we are not talking a large shop and just me running machines so this shouldn’t be hard to beat.
    Aye, I'm noiser than the average PM'er on this issue because I HAVE seen it, actually.

    So long as the high-volume air-flow is "episodal" use whilst chips are being generated, then OFF-duty, yer prolly good to go. All that comfy air the AC chiller or the DeLonghi heater has produced is GONE in a New York Minute and replaced with wotever ambient air is handy.

    Problem with constant run - even of an ignorant bathroom fan or a kitchen vent hood is costlier.

    We could heat or cool a 5 BR house or a 3 BR flat to reasonable comfort on a sane budget.

    Trying as a byproduct of losses to "condition' the entirety of Northern Virginia or Hong Kong SAR gets a lot TOUGHER to pay for!

    Our custom-built twin-screw Faber "Magnum" over the gas range in Kornhill is rated 780 Cu meters a minute and will suck a 300 mm by 1 meter open pane in the sitting room or a back bedroom sharp SHUT and ping yer eardrums if they ain't propped open.

    You'd have to know 90-year-old Bhuddist M'in Law cooks, BIG gas-fired woks, and the odd bout of forgetfullness leading to BLINDING acrid burnt black-bean/garlic & gingerol "chemical warfare".



    As to "Ag" origins? Yup. Needed EARLY-on. A lot longer ago than woodchopping needs, and still an issue into "modern times":

    40 years ago today: Continental Grain elevator explosion | wwltv.com

    "Beavers" AKA Combat Hairy-Ears, are of course trained to make this s**t happen a-purpose we should be temporarily shortchanged on military "safety" 'plosives. Less than a dry-measure quart of "wood flour" and the unpublishables, colour yer shop "preserved only in old photographs".

    I did say "mind yer fines"?

    What Causes Grain elevator Explosions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    I still have not gathered from his site the particulars of duct sizing as he contradicts himself several times on different parts of site (I assume he wrote that tome during his learning curve...)
    I will look about and get sorted.
    A pretty easy book with a 'cook book' engineering point of view is Workshop Dust Control by Nagyszalanczy - at least in my opinion. Don't know if it is still in print. Easier than the ASHRAE books - again in my opinion. Although I'm a mechanical engineer by training I have never worked in this area. So I'm happy to rely on something akin to the 'Woodchuck Manual' that Bill and I got to know and love in our former lives as combat engineers. Usually the 95% solution is fine - at least in my opinion - as long as we are not talking something like safety of flight. And before someone jumps me as to the health risks involved in wood dust - I understand, but there are so many variables involved in the 'perfect' solution and it is so far out on the curve I choose not to go there in my one man retirement shop. Others may have other opinions. That is what I like about free will!

    Dale

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    "Beavers" AKA Combat Hairy-Ears, are of course trained to make this s**t happen a-purpose we should be temporarily shortchanged on military "safety" 'plosives. Less than a dry-measure quart of "wood flour" and the unpublishables, colour yer shop "preserved only in old photographs".

    I did say "mind yer fines"?
    Bill -

    You have to admit that dust initiated explosions (when you are trying to set them off) are a fun variation from the normal run of the mil C4 experience. We used to like aluminum for the dust.

    Dale

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    Quote Originally Posted by duckfarmer27 View Post
    We used to like aluminum for the dust.
    Cheating, the light metals are!

    Powdered Zinc and flowers of sulphur, as solid-propellant "rockets", OTOH...

    Must have been ten years old that year, given I was using Pyrex glass tubing for the body of the "device".

    Didn't figure out how to manufacture decent strength Nitric acid for my "hydrocarbon solvent" based goods for another year or two. Fortunately, Dad had been a 16-year-old College Chem Lab assistant prof before he became a blaster, so he intercepted all that, "vanished" my chem lab "kit", and bought me a pair of Austro-Hungarian War One Steyr-Mannlicher M95's to modify to ambidextrous use.

    Then traded those in-turn for sumthin' safer just about the time I was ready to try welding on a left-handed handle and assuredly bugger the heat treat of the bolt-carrier.

    Next came more interesting cars as I got older, core drilling, surveying, and more.

    Lotta years passed before I realized that I had been blessed with better guidance than I knew was going-on for those years.

    I never did seem to have the same sort of "toys" as other kids...

    And speaking of unusual toys.. Dad didn't ALWAYS stay ahead of me, even so.

    Heading-out one 16-year-old evening in his neon-blue '57 Chrysler Saratoga 4-door hardtop, all glitzy tailfins, and wiiiiide bench seats...for what HE thought was my "first date, ever" with a hot GF, already the mother of a young child, just not MY child ...he suddenly got sorta red-faced and said:

    "Hmm.. uh.. Son? We've never had any sort of talk about ... ummm sex?"

    "Well, Dad. Not a problem. What do you want to know?"

    Teen-aged kids.

    Once their ears finish growing shut? They should leave home so they can rule the WORLD.. while they still KNOW EVERYTHING!

    I did make "the usual attempt", leaving home, age 18, but "too many REALLY interesting women, too little time" so gave it up as a job not worth striving for, after all!


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    Dale

    Thanks: Workshop Dust Control by Nagyszalanczy.

    I ordered a copy

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