Spindle shaper where the head can be moved into the work? Any Ideas?

Hello everyone,

I am trying to either find or build a wood working machine that I believe does not exist anymore but maybe someone out there knows of a source or has some ideas of how to go about building one? We have an entire machine shop at our disposal and we have successfully built other custom machines like a streamline steel tube former which was a challenge.

What I need to make or find is a Spindle Shaper that can take custom knives (critical aspect) that the head can be accurately moved into the piece of wood. maximum distance required to move is 2-3 inches. Not much but when you take a look at our 3 HP Grizzly Shaper, you see everything is attached to the underside of the top steel work surface. So trying to come up with a SAFE mechanism to move this cutter head with all its attachments is not easy.

The work piece (wood) will be fed along a guide fence and then the cutter head will be engaged, into the wood and then advanced for a set distance and then the cutter head will be withdrawn from the wood piece. The only other way I know how to do this is by pivoting the work piece into the stationery shaper head, mover the piece along the desired length of the shaping, and then pivot it out. Tried it once on our current shaper, scared the heck out of me.

So any ideas, or CONSTRUCTIVE suggestion would be appreciate. Please do not suggest CNC router cause we have had one and it would not do the job in any reasonable time, so I sold it.

Thanks!

Hmm, just because you said don't mention a cnc router, now I want to know what you had. How did you have it fixtured? What kind of molding head did you have on it? Did the machine have 2 tables so you could load one while it was cutting?

Back to the question, there are some jump shapers out there, but I am guessing that you will have to make one. I honestly and not quite sure how they work as I think they would be dependent on feed rate to get the timing/dimensions right.
Here is a video, not very good quality nor does it show much, but I think this might be what you want to do? Start at 1 min in and turn the sound down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cOQrSfmlVc&index=2&list=PL4nIHXEClbKYeWoSOyX8XgS0spiLRZptM

Another thought is to use a template and a follower bearing, how many of these things do you need to do?

I have also seen an edgebander reworked to do similar work, it already has all the switches and such that are based off of the part length and when it gets fed into the machine. Newer ones even have a PLC on the front end so you can tweak in the operations.

Can you show any pictures or drawings?

Not trying to be rude, but given your description are you familar with contour shaping to a bearing on the spindle with a heavy carrier board?

If you really need what you seem to be describing, linear profilers in various configurations have been in use since at least the 1920's. No nead to re-invent the wheel. Bacci still makes them, but apparently only 2 head machines. Old ones (other brands with more typcial single head) can often be found in the back at old line woodwhacking machinery dealers (industrial machinery dealers, not Grizzly or Delta).

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=bacci linear profiler

Used linear copy shaper for sale. Helma / amd, Bacci and more.

The new machines apparently run mostly on hydraulic control. Older ones essentially worked on a mechanical spring-loaded swing arm with air damping, or air cylinder as the spring.

as a lower tech solution, I have a Panhans (brand) shaper accessory that is a relatively heavy track and roller table with about 30" travel. It would be easy to fit the straight line table with a lever, screw, or air operated cross slide. Another way to do it is to bolt the frame(track) to the table only at one end, and let it swing in and out of the spindle with a pattern guide. A long time ago I saw a linear profiler that was essentially a purpose/factory made version of the same thing, but it probably had close to 48" travel & a much larger clamping table.
smt

PS, are you selling (business) seamless 4140 streamline tubing, or why did you get into it?

Mount a swing frame with table & template holder on the sliding/roller table of a shaper like this, and it would have all the elements of an old style linear profiler. Might (or might not) include an air cylinder snubber to control infeed rate.



Depending on width of work, it could even include the feeder to drive the sliding section of the table so long as the swing frame was free. Stock feeds might be too fast even on slowest speed, though if you plan heavy, deep cuts. Point being that the travel could be automated easily as well. (as it is on a factory built machine)

smt

We need more information - how thick is the wood, what species, how many parts to be made? Will this be a production situation running daily?

This sounds to me like it could easily be done with a proper fixture on a plain manual shaper. Either running a template against a bearing or deadhead, or pivoting it and running against a fence or on rails. A 3 hp Grizzly is a very light shaper, I could easily imagine having an unpleasant experience with it. Also if you just tipped the material in without it being held on a subtantial fixture, that could be scary too. The key is too have lots of mass in the fixture, long lever arms for tipping in, and stop blocks on the fence to restrain the assembly.

Manual shaping is not for the faint of heart or inexperienced, and some pretty awful things can happen fast if you get into trouble. But with properly designed jigs, a lot can be done safely. But if you prefer and can afford/justify it, those machine referenced above will do it without breaking a sweat.

Hi MacGyver, We did have a small CNC router in our shop 48"x60" but it was just not powerful enough to do this work in any kind of reasonable time frame. 2-3 hours to machine one shaped pocket that a Spindle shaper could do in 30 seconds with custom knives. So I sold that small CNC router to someone else.

I did watch the video and that is "similar" to what we want to do. Deeper, wider cut for each operation.

I have the knives made for our Grizzly shaper, so I will see about possibly uploading those to the forum so everyone can see the kind of cut we are trying to make.

Thanks,

Cismontguy

Hello Stephen, I am familiar with contour shaping with a bearing and a rub bushing, but I do not think that will work in this instance. The pieces of wood we are trying to pocket with the shaper are 14 to 20 feet long. I do not see any easy way of making the pattern or using it, successfully? I have draw the idea up in SolidWorks but it did not look like something that I would want to try. We do know about the way of swinging a piece of wood into a shaper and then pivoting it out after moving it a certain distance past the cutter head. But this is just not practical for the parts we are making.

You can PM me on the 4130 streamline tubing question. Yes we make it and sell it.

I don't mean to scold the OP, this is not uncommon, but it would be so much easier if posters gave more complete information in their initial post. I was visualizing a 12"-18" piece that would be hard to hold on to. 14' -16' is a whole other ball game. Stephen - can you put up a sticky with recommendations for describing problems?

Back to Cismont - how thick and what material are you cutting? This really does sound like a job for a router, but a really beefy one. Moving the material has got to be extremely awkward. Could it be done with a 3hp hand held router and custom router bit? I've seen people take huge cuts with those. Once we're seen your cutter we'll know a

I think we need to see what you are trying to do. Richard has made shaper fixtures to do some astounding 3D work for furniture. I've got quite a few years of tricking my shapers into doing large millwork parts.

Not to get in an argument, it sounds like you have a good handle on some (most?) of the issues. There is some sense you might be merely trying to use machines that are too small for the task or possibly poorly tooled. I'm trying to picture a cnc router taking a 1/2 hour to cut a pocket that can be done quickly with plunge on a shaper. If the problem is that simple, put the shaper cutterhead on the router spindle and slow it down. It must have had more HP than a 3HP Grizzly. Jason (MacGyver) knows routers, so if he comments it is worthwhile information.

Per the patterns, I have made patterns up to 14 ft for running circulat nosings, for the tiers in theatres, from time to time. The stock is clamped to the carry board and runs through the bandsaw to a fixutre that saws it about 1/8" wider than the line, then the whole shebang goes under the stock feeder on a shaper and gets hauled through against a fence or/and a bearing.

So once again, some pictures or a sketch of what you are trying to do will either shut us up or help us provide more info since you asked.

smt

Here is a picture of the kind of machine (function wise) that we are trying to build. The shaper head moves into the spar and then can be withdrawn, when the correct length of material has been removed, the spar continues to advance and the next portion is shaped, and so on. We have 14 ft. to 20 ft. spars made out of very expensive aircraft grade spruce. I do not know of any way to use a large router to do this work, because the profile being cut is not symmetrical about the routers motor axis, i.e. the top profile is different from the bottom profile. The spars cuts outs change at different locations along the spar. So changing knives and running them through a modified shaper seems to be the best answer.

If you're going to build your own solution.

A lighter duty design that may give you an idea or two for moving the cutter head under power is the Logosol PH260 4 sided molder ((4) 4hp cutter heads) . Mainly the adjustable side cutter head(item 3 in attached picture straddled by 2 top feed rollers) and how it is positioned. Current design the head is positioned via the linear rails and acme thread then locked down. With a little thought it could be re-engineered to be a machine controlled axis or manual. It would function similar to the photo you posted.

I attached a top view from the online PH260 owners manual.


The Logosol website has some other interesting pieces of equipment that might be adaptable. I own a older PH260.

sorry had to take a trip through the local ICU for a couple days. ;(

My guess would be that originally the process was based on a linear profiler; whether the actual machine was bought/modified from an off-the-shelf model or shop built. At the time that wooden spars were still common in commercial aircraft, various versions of very heavy mechanical copy shapers, car-gainers & profilers were in use throughout industry; especially car (RR) and auto body manufacturing plants.

Can you break down the issue(s)sort of in order of importance & available components that are current inhibiting factors? For instance I would not imagine that spindle options were at all limited - almost any size, capacity & configuration would seem to be available either as used parts or as component assemblies. Many wood shapers have what amounts to being a cartridge spindle that could be used in other machines.

It sounds like the platform ("machine") to locate the spars & the tooling & control them might be a bigger factor. That configuration can probably be broken down into a set of smaller steps to determine a suitable level of control complexity.

How many parts do you expect to make?

If "only a few"; i am prone to falling back on the idea of a metal planer as just being a large, rigid, coordinate platform waiting to be accessorized for other purposes.



There is no suggestion that the router shown would have any application for your work. However, a heavier cartridge spindle from a woodworking shaper could be mounted in any orientation to the planer tool slide or clapper. With the spindle mounted horizontally (work flat to planer table), the clapper might a provide the basis for a simple vertical copy notion. Farther "out there" conceptually, Jason sent me a portable hydraulic tracer unit of a type applied to lathes & planers in the good old days.

Mounted with spindle vertcal, Y axis motion can be effected through the rail leadscrew to the cross slide. Suitable hard stops can be included.

Again, merely to suggest other adaptations as being suitable for the 3-5 inherent axes on a basic planer; here is a sideways (cross sectional) copy tracer application.



smt

Still not entirely sure what you want to achieve here but I would think having your fence move will be a much easier thing to achieve than having the spindle move. The fence could move in on hydraulic or pneumatic cylinders to your fixed point and then move back out when the cut is done. If you require a feeder of some sort,featherboard or guide rollers these could be attached to your fence either over the work or under.

I have to agree though that some sort of template and or fixture with a spndle bearing is a good option if you can make it work. Pictures of what you are making would really help.

Couple of questions-
How long are the pockets and what profile do they have: rounded or tapered ends?
Are the pockets machined on the top or side face? It seems they are on the side face in the B&W picture?

It's been a while, but something else is tugging at the dim reaches of my fading memory.
Not so sure I have not seen photos of similar set ups using heavy radial arm saws.

They used to gang them up in fixed lines for housing components, but ISTR something with a more industrial flavor, too. Many had air cylinders applied for control actuation, I ran one such, once. Along with the old standard ram type auto cut off's.

A Helma or Balestrini copy shaper looks a heck of a lot like your image. Just take one spindle out, & provide your own track.

If the OP ever really clarifies what the specs and intention are here, and how many pieces will be made, it would be easier to answer Q's.

smt

stephen thomas said:

A Helma or Balestrini copy shaper looks a heck of a lot like your image. Just take one spindle out, & provide your own track.

smt

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Just the ticket. Otherwise, a big wadkin or SCM spindle moulder with roller tables to rest the work on, and a suitable control to grip and move the work into the spindle, pneumatically operated or similar.
Pockets from the top? - a similar roller setup with a monster overhead router- think SCM R9 or bigger.

I thought of this machine as soon as he posted, my friend works at CR Onsrud and they have built this machine in this video which is of course a PR sales video, but I think that this is relevant to the discussion. This is a twin head 5 axis, but it could handle the shaper/molding heads that I think he needs. This one should be big enough.

I bring this up because there are many cnc routers out there that can do this type of work that I think the OP wants to do, now whether the volume justifies it we may never know....

These guys can and have done full automation of loading the material, cutting it and unloading etc, they can build most anything a person needs as long as they have a good banker.

Start at 50 sec in for the action to start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqkc5bG8j68

Seems like the OP has disappeared, maybe to sulk because we made fun of weeny Grizzly tools?

Any straight up copy shaper is going to require the 20 ft long patterns the OP says he does not want to use. That system is not the best unless he is making dozens of these spars all alike, due to "tippiness" issues though extra fencing could be contrived. Beyond that, profilers don't really have positive control (like a leadscrew) of the spindle travels beyond pneuma- or hydro snubbers, and the pattern. But of course a profiler could be re-configured to get rid of the copy feature and install a leadscrew or lever arm, and positive stop or similar on one of the heads.

Getting a closer handle on the task and taking a clue from the note about changing tooling, I almost think I'd start with a used multi-spindle slot mortiser; take the router motors out, and put a shaper head in one or more of the work stations. That gives X-Y control of long parts, positive fencing and clamps, and the option to set hard stops for the travels. The right machine could conceivably have 3 or 4 heads with dedicated tooling, used in sequence. There's one on the discount industrial woodwhacking auction site now whose logo matches our favorite government tax agency.

But we still have not seen the actual profile/depth/length and type of cut to be made.

smt

Cismontguy said:

Please do not suggest CNC router cause we have had one and it would not do the job in any reasonable time, so I sold it.

Click to expand...

I would guess the router you were using was too small.

Something with a 10+ hp spindle and ER40 collet nose can hold shanks up to 1.0" diameter and spin shaper cutters. So whatever you're doing on a shaper can be done on the router with the same tooling and the same number of passes, but without the safety issues.

I don't know where the OP went, but I gotta say- you guys ROCK for depth of experience and helpfulness!
That is all.