Why so few post on Woodworking forum?

[stephen thomas]

There seem to be some opinions, including my personality.

Please discuss, any factors considered.

smt

 

[rons]

I noticed the low number of posts too.

There are about three outlets in my town that sell top quality plywoods and hardwoods. Try to find a 4x8 sheet of lumber core walnut at Home Cheapo. All they have is garbage imports. You can't even find a decent piece of Douglas Fir.

All that cheap laminated/particle board junk appears to satisfy people who don't know anything about quality/construction. Those junk furniture pieces end up on the curb with "FREE" signs. Find your average serf and ask if they know who Tage Frid, James Krenov, or Sam Maloof are.

 

[thermite]

There seem to be some opinions, including my personality.

Please discuss, any factors considered.

smt

Simplest of reasons, I'd guess. Lack of any driving necessity.

Woodworking has probably had forums of its own for a rather longish time before PM even thought to add one.
You'd know far better than I which, where, and how well populated and "established", yah?

What compelling reason might there be for those already comfortable to make a move?

PM?

ISTR the "war story" of it having been pushed into existence initially as a means of detouring around endemic assholitis elsewhere?

Hopefully, there's not so much a surplus of that, wherever woodpeckers have been roosting, more cooperative, polite, and friendly-like?

Nuthin' WRONG with PM's woodworking forum. Just sorta like adding a lone cabinet shop in a boxcar to a hundred-car freight train of metal and plastics shops.

 

[paul39]

I joined this WOODTURNING - GENERAL about the time I joined PM. I make bowls. I have done home repair and maintenance for $$. I am now retired.

I joined PM because I bought a South Bend Heavy 10, (not for wood) and did not have a clue. The SB and General threads have been most helpful. I enjoy the Antique Machinery and History.

Except for the lathes & band saw, the equipment I use would be spat upon here. Nothing Asian, but I don't need a $2000 table saw to shorten a 2 X 4.

I greatly admire the work that S. T. does, his shop, and the solutions he comes up with for the unusual work he does. It makes for an interesting life, and I am sure when he is done with a job, he has a long look and a smile. Mostly. Sometimes one has a client..........

I think S. T. has a fine personality.

I do think the overall tone of PM has gotten nastier over the last few years. Not so much in woodworking.

Paul

 

[rons]

I do think the overall tone of PM has gotten nastier over the last few years. Not so much in woodworking.

Paul

Everyone has their own percentage:

se·nile
ˈsēˌnīl,ˈsenīl/
adjective
adjective: senile

1.
(of a person) having or showing the weaknesses or diseases of old age, especially a loss of mental faculties.

 

[specfab]

Well, I can't think of a person more qualified, OR with a better personality, to moderate this discussion board than SMT. Perhaps that is more of a tribute to my own provincialism, rather than outright suck-up compliment, but nevertheless, I find the discussions that occur here to be very useful. Even the ones that involve my mundane noob questions wherein I expose some degree of "inexperience" (also known as abject ignorance).

Woodworking, particularly finishing work, has never been a strong suit for me, indeed it's a very ill-fitting suit, but the stuff I read and see here is frequently amazing. Any lack of posts here at the moment is likely a result of everyone's attention being directed toward the debacle of the hour in DC....

 

[thermite]

Everyone has their own percentage:

se·nile
ˈsēˌnīl,ˈsenīl/
adjective
adjective: senile

1.
(of a person) having or showing the weaknesses or diseases of old age, especially a loss of mental faculties.

LOL! BEFORE one goes senile... there's a period of bitter, helpless RAGE at all the things one can no longer DO as well - if at all.

Simple things, such as shagging-at-will, drinking too much, and eating huge meals that never WERE "good for us", are among those.

Senile dementia only makes it possible to take some ENJOYMENT out of being a progressively more helpless old bastard!

Alzheimers robs a body of even that small pleasure.

Now go pound sand whilst yah PRAY for Alzheimers, ya Californikyah "percentages" snowflake!

 

[macgyver]

I don't know why there are fewer posts here other than the majority of interest on pm is of course more metal working than anything else.

I have not really found anything that is true industrial high end cnc/production wood forums, at least nothing like the info found here for metal machines and processes. Woodweb's cnc section is ok.

The lack of what I am interested in might be partly due to the way wood and metal shops are perceived and personnel are trained. Seems like metal shops do a better job of training people on tooling, processes etc and that may be due to the way the industry had built up the support structure for metal working. I think the higher end wood shops tend to buy into a certain brand with a turnkey package so they likely know little about the industry as a whole but know their brand of machinery fairly well. I am betting that in the boom times in furniture mfg in NC there were tons of people doing what I do but it was before the internet was a thing to jabber on..

Another way to think of it is there are only a couple university wood programs in the US vs a kajillion metal programs.

Youtube has similar tendencies, the majority of the videos there are either a short crappy vid of a machine that is for sale with nothing more than showing that it moves, or you have a one person hobby shop that is more focused on making videos than making higher end content.

I am pretty sure that there are others on pm that have cnc routers, real ones, not hobby grade, but they seem to be busy with other things.

I have my work thread on here, but it doesn't seem to get much traffic when I do post.

Just some thoughts..

 

[thermite]

partly due to the way wood and metal shops are perceived and personnel are trained.

Point there. Our "wood shop" was 7th grade. Drafting 8th grade. Earliest metal-working mostly tinsmithing with galvanized, spinning with loominum, 9th grade onward. Mind 60 years ago.

The key take-away was first day of woodworking. Clarence Johnson, instructing said;

We are not here to make any of you into carpenters or cabinet makers unless you want to be.

Our primary mission is that you understand woods and how they are processed, put together, and finished so you will be wiser buyers of the products, and less likely to be fooled.

He then showed us that Willow had near-as-dammit identical natural grain to Black Walnut, could be stained to resemble it, had one third the weight as veneer over plywood, and much less than one-third the cost.

Then he did show and tell on drawers, their corners, their bottoms, their guide rails.. and within the space of 50 minutes.. had ruint MOST of us from ever again being happy buying cheap furniture, let alone particle board panels or cardboard bottoms with printed paper "grain"!

Even when we had no choice, lean years? We fretted over it, vowed to "some day" have the good stuff.

Ikea had been around back then and known about this radical s**t?

They might have put a price on his head!

 

[tay2daizzo8]

All that cheap laminated/particle board junk appears to satisfy people who don't know anything about quality/construction. Those junk furniture pieces end up on the curb with "FREE" signs.

I love my vintage ethan allen bedroom set..unmatched quality. ive dropped both pcs down a few different flights of stairs and they are still standing strong and sturdy. My wife keeps telling me to get rid of it..to my reply"why its gonna be here longer than you"

 

[thermite]

I love my vintage ethan allen bedroom set..unmatched quality. ive dropped both pcs down a few different flights of stairs and they are still standing strong and sturdy. My wife keeps telling me to get rid of it..to my reply"why its gonna be here longer than you"

Mother's #2 Cherry set, 1954, and her #1 Cherry set "Kling", 1960's are both serving the children - in their 30's - of dear friends close to 60 now.

I already had my own Cherry from a less-famous - but better-built, yet - small firm in North Carolina.

Ethan Allen? Meahh... dullsville mass-market white bread.

The REALLY "good stuff" is made in batches far too small to even support an extensive market.

One has to go and FIND it, else (as my late Aunt did, because she was so SHORT) have it made to order. Time was, that wasn't even all that expensive, midst of hardwood forests as still had "old growth" here and there.

Much as G'mum's use of Black Walnut for tongue & groove flooring 'coz they had the trees and a sawmill, relatives as owned the mill and lumberyard, but no cash-money for "factory" Oak or Pine.

 

[Steven-Canada]

Another way to think of it is there are only a couple university wood programs in the US vs a kajillion metal programs.

Youtube has similar tendencies, the majority of the videos there are either a short crappy vid of a machine that is for sale with nothing more than showing that it moves, or you have a one person hobby shop that is more focused on making videos than making higher end content.

frank howarth
- YouTube

Matthias Wandel
- YouTube


Those are alright, see the others related too.

 

[medsar]

There seem to be some opinions, including my personality.

Please discuss, any factors considered.

smt

I would agree with others in that this is a machinist site and not a woodworking site. I find that the crossover between wood and metal is rare. I am meaning a serious woodworker who is serious about metalworking (barring people who are into antique machines and such). I am not into modern woodworking. I own two power tools for woodworking -- a band saw and a small thickness planer. Both see marginal use. The rest is with hand tools. I don't frequent the woodworking forums because it is all about modern techniques. If I need info on 'age-old' techniques, I go to the 100 year old texts to find information. There are a few modern printers who do stuff on hand tool woodworking (i.e. Lost Art Press) but they are the exception. And I can't forget Hayward and Klauzs...there are more that I'm not mentioning.

 

[stephen thomas]

Thanks for the comments so far. I'd have to add a lot of likes. Refrained from adding any so as not to be perceived to be slighting others.

Per Jason's note, I think Don (site owner) always hoped it would evolve in that direction. AFAICR, there haven't been many posts or feelers if any in that direction except what you post - and that is much appreciated.

Per Medsar's post, i think a number of us have real affinity for good hand tools and hand tool methods, but they don't predominate except for some aspects of specific projects. Quite a few of us would be lost without planes and chisels even on many if not most of our commercial projects. Showing them especially is process would be welcome. There have been more than a few posts on the tools, though maybe not so many projects. Not to reduce our scant membership any further, lol, but are you familiar with OWWM? It's necessary to sign up and log in, but not seen on the main board is a Woodworking forum on which quite a few hand tool projects are being done. In the post: "John Townsend Newport Secretary" everything is done completely by hand tools. Even the mahogany stock for panels was resawn with a handsaw, (as well as all the other parts.) The builder is not a hobbyist. There is also a significant Roentgen piece with musical movement being done on the same forum as well by mix of hand and power tools. Old Woodworking Machines - Index page Again - it's necessary to sign up and log in to see the woodworking and metal working forums.

I always imagined there would be a lot more about tool building and application, but apparently that aggravates a more vocal percentage than it pleases. It also seemed like there would be more projects from custom builders. But maybe there is some proprietary reserve there as well?

Any suggestions to build traffic? Build contributions?
Or is this about where it suits most of the people who log in to PM?

smt

 

[thermite]

Thanks for the comments so far. I'd have to add a lot of likes. Refrained from adding any so as not to be perceived to be slighting others.

Per Jason's note, I think Don (site owner) always hoped it would evolve in that direction. AFAICR, there haven't been many posts or feelers if any in that direction except what you post - and that is much appreciated.

Per Medsar's post, i think a number of us have real affinity for good hand tools and hand tool methods, but they don't predominate except for some aspects of specific projects. Quite a few of us would be lost without planes and chisels even on many if not most of our commercial projects. Showing them especially is process would be welcome. There have been more than a few posts on the tools, though maybe not so many projects. Not to reduce our scant membership any further, lol, but are you familiar with OWWM? It's necessary to sign up and log in, but not seen on the main board is a Woodworking forum on which quite a few hand tool projects are being done. In the post: "John Townsend Newport Secretary" everything is done completely by hand tools. Even the mahogany stock for panels was resawn with a handsaw, (as well as all the other parts.) The builder is not a hobbyist. There is also a significant Roentgen piece with musical movement being done on the same forum as well by mix of hand and power tools. Old Woodworking Machines - Index page Again - it's necessary to sign up and log in to see the woodworking and metal working forums.

I always imagined there would be a lot more about tool building and application, but apparently that aggravates a more vocal percentage than it pleases. It also seemed like there would be more projects from custom builders. But maybe there is some proprietary reserve there as well?

Any suggestions to build traffic? Build contributions?
Or is this about where it suits most of the people who log in to PM?

smt

I don't avoid this forum off your input or those of other serious craftsmen. Quite the reverse. I see "SMT" pop-up on "new posts", it will be opened and read.

But truth told, it is a nostalgia thing - magnificent woodwork of times gone by, and on my watch as adult. not in childhood, far more often seen in Europe or China than in the Americas. Ludwig of Bavaria's bedroom furnishings, the Empress of Austria's Chamberlain's desk, Kyoto's nightingale floors, 700-year old cedar shakes still doing their job, every rainy day.

Many countries, many "Schloss" or "Berg", and the odd tomb's grave-goods, remote parts of China to Cairo, Berlin, London.. where Von Schliemann and other de facto looters drug stuff home from far-off lands.

All of that niche - or so it has NOW become - is better handled in those obvious predecessor websites already known to yourself and other "practitioners".

It isn't, in my view, anyway - that PM is basically a metals site, but rather that it is a volume-MANUFACTURING toolset, (or meant to be..) rather than one driven by custom crafting of the uber-fine, one or few at a time.

We do not get all that much traffic even for machinists' toolchests done in fine woods (not coarse Oak, please!). Not all of us who "appreciate" them would actually WANT one for our own use.

Folks who mass-produce doors, windows, kitchen cabinetry, glue-lam beams, skeleton trusses to a standard, etc. might visit PM to see what automated equipment / CNC developments could reduce waste or up productivity. Some portion of that WAS Milacron's biz at one time, to some extent, yah? But perhaps not yours?

2CW.

Well..a few pounds of home-grown 80 year-aged Black Walnut, 100-year Cherry, worth. And a Redwood burl shipped back from Richmond, CA nearly 30 years ago I may not live long enough to even START on, "priorities" as they are...

There's the OTHER part of it. "Tolerating" stuff we might WISH to change for well-crafted quality, but on-balance never do. A set of MariTool's TG-100 collets has bubbled-up past it on the "RTWL".

 

[henrya]

If there is a problem here, its not Stephen. I’d post more but some things I know nothing about so I just keep quiet on those. Generally the level of discourse here is high. A larger volume of lesser posts would not necessarily be better.

If its not outside the spirit of the forum I may write up a post on my hobby saw mill efforts.

For those who complain about showing tool making projects, (or anything else that fits this forum) it seems to me they could show their stuff if they think its better than what they are complaining about. And then tell in a constructive way why its a better way of working.

 

[johnoder]

It is a cultural thing. In simplest terms, the interested parties no longer exist in any significant numbers

They were commonplace 70 odd years ago as per thumbnail

Now their modern counterparts stare at the "machine" in their hand, and apparently do nothing else if they can help it

 

[PeteM]

As others have said, Stephen, your posts are one of the highlights of the entire site.

Do a Venn diagram of machinists -- who also love and have time for woodworking or cabinet making -- and still have questions they can't easily get answered -- and that's likely your demographic. I'd also guess that PM tends to have folks later rather than earlier in their careers (perhaps many retired and semi-retired with the time to post). These folks may have an interest in both wood and metalworking; but they may already know the answers to many of the usual questions.

On the positive side, you're not getting a deluge of questions like "should I buy a Harbor Freight table saw."

There's something to be said for quality over quantity.

 

[stephen thomas]

Thanks guys -

This was a sincere question, not a request for validation (though it is appreciated!), because the matter comes up here & in other groups, on & off line. What i realized long ago is that only a very few rare people in life have the knack and talent to please everyone while also being effective. The rest of us have to keep checking whether we're headed off the rails from time to time; and the reminders usually come from outside.

I'm probably somewhat tone deaf in the matter of posting pictures & in enthusiasm. Many of us embedded the message "show your work" & value illustration of it,and photos, even routine ones as adding both interest and information to a post. Others were brought up to see more than scant evidence of finished work or process as showing off. Fundamentally it's a matter of style, not right or wrong; but it cuts to the core of some people's ethos.

I don't know quite how it is related, but accompanying the "show-off/don't show off" concerns is often a deep but not always realized concern for "permission". Some of us don't need it, others are offended by that insouciance: Where's the degree, where's the authority, where's the master, how can people just be allowed to do that? My posts do tend to be iconoclastic in the sense that i hope to encourage "anyone" to "just go do it." "It's not that hard - identify the key practical issues, and of course the key safety factors, & devise a process." In life, permission (well, sadly, + money) holds more people back than technical issues.

So i'm probably not going to change much - my ethos was formed too long ago. This is also a forum, by definition a place to show, tell, and hopefully learn. But i'll try to tone my personal approach down to being more quizzical than emphatic.

It would be great to see more photos from others, more work posted, and build a little vibrancy here, all with safety, of course. Anyone with pointers, certainly with projects, please jump in.

smt

 

[Don Burch]

I never found much momentum in anything woodworking.
Don