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Woodworking- Mid size chisel mortiser and small tenoner suggestions ?

Milacron

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Not for me, local guy asked me about such...but been so many years since I was involved in the trade, can't remember the manufacturers of such that were so nice. I remember Northfield made a nice chain mortiser, for example, but did they make a chisel type ? And I remember there was a really cute little tenoner, smaller than the Powermatic version, but the manufacturer completely escapes my brain. But that's the one this guy really needs.

(on edit) Millbury ! That was it ! :) So, now for mid size floor model chisel morticers.... Oliver, ********* & Egan, or ??

And before anyone says it, don't bother chattering away with alternatives, like using a mortising attachment on a drill press or doing tenons on a tablesaw...well aware of that (and the disadvantages of same). Also well aware of Maka mortiser, but this guy specifically wants chisel type.
 
OT, my bit on Mortisers.

Chain mortisers are more of a Euro thing.

The good makers are Haffner, Festo, ELU, Bäuerle, Fezer, Rapid. Good luck finding one, and/or the chains (most always metric) statesite.

Google image search Kettenstemmer.

Lost my patience with chisel mortisers.
 
OT, my bit on Mortisers.

Chain mortisers are more of a Euro thing.

The good makers are Haffner, Festo, ELU, Bäuerle, Fezer, Rapid. Good luck finding one, and/or the chains (most always metric) statesite.
I guess you were confused by my mentioning the Northfield chain mortiser.... but as per the title of the thread, this guy is only interested in chisel type mortisers.
 
Milbury made 2 sizes. The L106 is about the same size as a PM, slightly cruder, but reputed to hold alignments better. (such as tenon spindles not cocking off horizontal, when moved to another position). OTOH, once a tenon space is set on a PM, the whole shebang can be moved up or down to position the tenon on the end of the board without changing the tenon thickness. On Milbury, you move each tenon spindle, no provision to lock & move in tandem. So if the tenon had to be move down a skinch, say, you move one spindle for position, then try to move the other the same amount to maintain size. Not a super big deal, but should not be necessary.

Milbury also made a cute little "table top" mortiser that is good for sash work and maybe doll houses? Millbury or Harris, model BT112

Whatever tenoner, verify how many heads the end purchaser needs. Not real easy to find after the fact. A lot of these only came through with 3 heads (top & bottom tenon, trim saw). 4 heads (add one cope head make the machine a lot more useful. I prefer 5 for the option of where to run the cope or specialized joint cutter(s) as well as the occasional need to have top and bottom copes running as well as the tenon and trim heads.

VintageMachinery.org Photo Index - by Machine Type

Mortisers: does he need tilt table? PM was the last US mid-size made that I know of.

VintageMachinery.org Photo Index - by Machine Type


smt, Millbury & EB Smith tenoners, Greenlee 228 auto HC mortiser
 
Milbury made 2 sizes. The L106 is about the same size as a PM, slightly cruder, but reputed to hold alignments better. (such as tenon spindles not cocking off horizontal, when moved to another position). OTOH, once a tenon space is set on a PM, the whole shebang can be moved up or down to position the tenon on the end of the board without changing the tenon thickness. On Milbury, you move each tenon spindle, no provision to lock & move in tandem. So if the tenon had to be move down a skinch, say, you move one spindle for position, then try to move the other the same amount to maintain size. Not a super big deal, but should not be necessary.
That's interesting Stephen..didn't know that. So, if you have the space, the PM would be more desirable for a low volume single end tenoner I guess.

Re chisel mortisers, I remember a friend of mine had a "Bell", which had a semi automatic feature where the head went up and down under power. But one of those probably too beefy for this guy.

Greenlee ! Forgot about that one...yes, a 1950's vintage Greenlee might be the ultimate for his purposes.
 
... I remember Northfield made a nice chain mortiser, for example, but did they make a chisel type ? ...this guy specifically wants chisel type.

Yes, Northfield did make a chisel type Mortice machine, type CTX. I've had to do a couple repairs on the foot pedal arm for friend who has one...cabinet and millshop.

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/discontinued/HollowChiselMortiser.pdf

http://globalwoodworkingmachinerysales.com/NORTHFIELD-VERTICAL-HOLLOW-CHISEL-MORTISER-MO-1005.htm
 
On paper the PM tenoner is a better machine. Heavier tenon spindles, vs Milbury 7/8" dia. Also, "modern" round gibbed tenon heads on PM with HSS knives. The aforementioned ability to move a set tenon space in tandem for position. PM cope spindles are partially be threaded (as opposed to setscrew flat for the cutterheads on a Milbury). This may or may not be an advantage, depending if the operator makes or buys tooling. I don't know many who can actually use the cope spindles effectively due to the tooling issues: cost vs skill. PM also took the quick and dirty approach to mounting the cope spindles with bolts and a dowel (or roll pin), so theoretically, they can be tilted to align, if not so from the factory. Milbury requires re-machining if this area is not up to snuff.

If the owner prefers to buy tooling, get the PM and have it set up (all spindles aligned) right to start and learn to be sure the tenon heads are not cocked.

If the owner prefers to control his own tooling, the Milbury is kind of designed around that. The bolt on knives on the open tenon heads are just hard enough that they can be filed (& burred like a scraper, if desired). Since a critical factor on a tenoner is that the cut be parallel to table surface (for non-tilty table type machine), this is easy to accomplish by clamping a flat board to the table, and filing each cutter until it kisses all the way along its (skew cutting) length. Easier than it might seem. Hone with an india stone to finish.

The PM knives must be sent out, most likely in the head, (so machine is down until heads returned) to have a decent job done of it. Potentially better system, but you are at the mercy of whether anyone remotely local is capable.

Cope heads for either machine are a toss up. ~30 yrs ago, I modified some 4-3/4" cutting circle sears type cutting heads to fit my spindles, buy square insert blanks, and grind them myself freehand. One knife cutting is fine for a small tenoner (with aproximately balanced slugs in the empty slots). Or, if you want, break the cut up over 2 or 3 knives in the head.

smt
 
We had an old MONARCH chisel type mortiser in our shop for several years. No idea if it came from the lathe co. We later got an old Yates American. The Monarch was "stored" in our shop for about 10 years,but used there also.
 
As a hobbiest woodworker my definition of mid-sized may not be the same as your friend's, but I've had this one for 10 years or so and it's been a great machine:

General 75-075, 1 inch hollow chisel mortiser with tilting head

This one is table mount but I believe they make floor standing also. A far cry from the flimsy drill press mounted units. The table has adjustable gibs and the axes lock down. Very smooth, solid feel. The tilting head has come in very handy a few times for doing angled mortises - easier to deal with than supporting the workpiece at an angle. The country of manufacture is Taiwan.
 
Nice looking single ender. It appears to be in the same size range as PM/Millbury 106. (I.e, "small"). Very attractive and probably a lot more "accurate" than the afforementioned machines. Only downside i see is no top cope head; and cope head is arranged like on a euro machine, more like a shaper head, unless there is a stub spindle or if it can be lowered "really low". USA type machines are designed to have the cutters above the top of the spindle so they can cope under (or over) an unlimited length tenon. The style shown (again, unless it has a removable stub spindle or lowers more than it looks) can only cope as long as the cutter wing you care to swing on it.

Still, a very nice looking machine, and often nice to have the trim saw in the front station, which most USA types get backwards, putting it last.

smt
 
As for a mortiser - I picked up a 45 year old Powermatic Model 10 a couple of months ago. Very similar to the picture of the Northfield unit above. Don't have it running yet (have to get RPC set up), but in checking it over it seems rugged. Came out of a school auction - and actually my brother in law was the teacher who bought it back then. Still in good shape and fully functional.

Dale
 
I too have a Powermatic 10 and yes it is a nice machine but it has one downfall, that is the commonly available and inexpensive chisels (that fit all of those annoying imported table top machines) will not fit as they are too short. If you can find one with a set of good, sharp chisels this is a moot point.

Slightly smaller, but still a good floor machine is the small Oliver, I think the number 92. I have one of those, too. The intention was to replace it with the PM, but I get jittery when I think of getting rid of the old girl. This is a very good and capable little machine, about the size of a 15" drill press. Both of these machines are small enough to go into a basement or an upstairs shop, if that is an issue, but they are stout enough to do a good job. The little Ollie takes up to 1/2" chisels and the PM will go up to at least 3/4".

If your friend can turn up either of these machines he will not be disappointed.

btw, I'm not sure which chisels the Oliver takes. I bought mine missing a few parts in that area and I made them so that the common chisels fit. I think this is what it was originally built to use, since everything lined up so well.

Steve
 
Garrett Wade used to sell the Multico morticer. A very good quality machine.
Multico 1-hp Benchtop Mortiser PM 22 - Fine Woodworking Tool Review

A friend of mine has one and it works very well. They come in several different size options and I don't know who sells them in the U.S. I had a quick look and did not see them on the Garrett site.
I have a Jonsered chain/chisel that is very heavy duty and a fine machine although a bit on the larger side at 2500 lbs. The Northfield is a good size but the only drawback with that style is the foot pedal. The chisel needs positive action into the cut and OUT of the cut.
A hand operated handle is a must for a morticer.
Most shops that have a chisel morticer don't get the most out of their machine as they don't spend any time on sharpening the chisel. I invested in the proper reamers from Garrett Wade and they work very well. I also polish the outside surfaces of the chisels to a mirror finish.

I got so tired of cutting tenons that I designed and made my own template router system.
Very accurate and flexible machine. Here is a link to a pm thread with pics of the jig.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/flatten-aluminum-plate-144749/
I have made several batches of these and sold them to local woodworkers. I use mine for chair tenons and other furniture joinery.


I would stay away from the Millbury tenoner as they are in the "antique" section. I used to own the smallest one they make and it was a pita.

If there is room then go for a Bacci. BACCI - TSG2T - Single tenoner - YouTube

I have seen these go very cheap at IRS auctions.

You don't mention the application for the tenoner? Doors and windows or furniture?

Michael

ps, maybe an edit is in order? It is Fay and Egan .......
 
I too have a Powermatic 10 and yes it is a nice machine but it has one downfall, that is the commonly available and inexpensive chisels (that fit all of those annoying imported table top machines) will not fit as they are too short.

That's a puzzle!
They fit fine in my Greenlee 228 automatic, & I know of many other people who use them in old line USA machines. I have buckets of Greenlee, Forrest City, Wadkin and other USA chisel sets, but generally prefer the asian imports because they cut more cleanly with less force. I do know how to sharpen chisels and augers, and touch them up every time a set or size is changed. The geometry of the (decent) asian stuff just works better.

From side by side comparison, the asian sets are usually a touch longer than the old USA sets that I have on hand, so your comment really has me curious? Maybe some of the USA auger shanks are longer, but not all.

smt_plasticmortise.jpg


On the subject of Milbury's, as in my other posts above, i would not recommend one to someone who did not make their own consumable tooling by preference. But if you are such a person who makes the cutting tooling for shop machines because of the versatility, flexibility, & very low expense to performance ratio, then a Milbury is not a bad platform after it is gone over and aligned well. Same boat as the PM, really, though as mentioned the PM has some slight advantages.

Michael, the Bacci machines are pretty cool if you want to make dinky little stub tenons with no offset shoulder characteristics. I'd own one for stuff like making stylish but low tech chairs assuming the tenons could be up to 3" long in one pass. But for a millwork or custom furniture shop, how are you going to make saddle joint's/check rail cuts, let alone cope?
Also, you then have to chisel off the round ends of every tenon to fit a proper square mortise. :D

smt
 
Stephen Thomas,

You are right that the tooling for the larger machines, like the one in your picture, will fit the PM 10. But this isn't the smaller, more ubiquitous stuff that is sold for the benchtop mortisers, the DP mortising attachments, and the like. This tooling is cheaper and in greater supply. The key difference is that this tooling is considerably shorter in the shank area, but also shorter overall.

I find your comments re: Asian tooling vs. US interesting. I have little experience with US tooling, since I bought Delta chisels for my Oliver, and they are imported. I always thought I had inferior stuff. Maybe not!

Not to hijack Milacron's topic too badly, but can you offer some guidance on proper methodology for sharpening the chisels? The PM came with one, 3/4" set and apparently six months outdoors over a Michigan winter (came from a school, natch) doesn't do anything favorable for the keenness of these tools.

TIA,

Steve
 
Also, you then have to chisel off the round ends of every tenon to fit a proper square mortise. :D
When I built hardwood furniture back in the 80's, I made all mortises with a special spiral router cutter. Standard hand held router was mounted horizontally on shop built wood fixture with adjustable height table* and provision for stops or just pencil marks. Wood fed into router cutter by hand and pushed by hand to appropriate length mortice.

As I recall, was pretty easy and quick process...much quicker than even an automatic chisel mortiser. The cutter design was critical, as it tended to keep the wood down flat on the table instead of vibrating and bouncing the wood as a normal cutter would.

On critical work we rounded the tendons by hand to fit the radiused mortises, but for much non critical work, like cabinet face frames, the radius mortises ends were simply left with a small gap..worked fine. (for tendons we had an ancient flat belt single end tenoner of some sort...can't remember who made it but it worked pretty well for our purposes. Was a little larger than the Powermatic version and all cast iron)

I mention all this as the Bacci would have been perfect for that situation. I vaguely recall knowing about it back then but the expense for even the cheapest used one was so beyond our possiblities it might as well have been cheese on the moon.

---------------------------


*table was simply pivoted to change height..... one screw with bushing at one end and another screw with lock handle at other end with radius cut out of table face support. Result was slightly unlevel table sometimes, but that didn't matter at all for the purpose. Being all plywood, pencil marks on face for various wood thickness possiblities made changing setups quick.
 








 
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