Used Haas ... Is there a hidden pot of gold in the casting that I cant find?

If there is, that would explain it!

It seems like owners and dealers alike want damn near full retail for a used machine with tons of hours on it. The machines will sit on eBay or Craigslist for MONTHS at a time and they stay firm on pricing.

I dont care if its clean, how can you expect someone to pay $25k for a 98 VF-2 with 12k spindle hours on it?

Meanwhile... Mori Seiki's can be had for reasonable prices.

What am I missing?

Well, you saw the other thread where according to one (useless) poster the high prices would be because of their "usefullness".

I have to ask, if Mori's can be had for reasonable prices? Why then, are you even looking at HAAS's?

Answer that, and you will have answered your own question.

geoffw said:

If there is, that would explain it!

It seems like owners and dealers alike want damn near full retail for a used machine with tons of hours on it. The machines will sit on eBay or Craigslist for MONTHS at a time and they stay firm on pricing.

I dont care if its clean, how can you expect someone to pay $25k for a 98 VF-2 with 12k spindle hours on it?

Meanwhile... Mori Seiki's can be had for reasonable prices.

What am I missing?

Click to expand...

"What am I missing?" You are missing the real world. Easy to use machines that are easy to maintain and repair if necessary and will make you money each day. If your an idiot like TC19999 or whatever, please don't apply.

Buy that Mori and try to maintain it for a reasonable price. Hell, just buy it if the are that cheap, they are good machines you know.

And, personally I would not pay $25k for a 98, but it is not THAT far off. It will make you money each day and keep on trucking. And 12k hours on a spindle is just broken in.

What an easy decision, buy it or don't! Mine make me money each and every day.

Have a nice day----Mike

machineit2 said:

"What am I missing?" You are missing the real world. Easy to use machines that are easy to maintain and repair if necessary and will make you money each day. If your an idiot like TC19999 or whatever, please don't apply.

Buy that Mori and try to maintain it for a reasonable price. Hell, just buy it if the are that cheap, they are good machines you know.

And, personally I would not pay $25k for a 98, but it is not THAT far off. It will make you money each day and keep on trucking. And 12k hours on a spindle is just broken in.

What an easy decision, buy it or don't! Mine make me money each and every day.

Have a nice day----Mike

Click to expand...

Yeah...you look like the smart one...

Geof,

I'd second what Wheelieking said...which is pretty much what you seem to already know. As someone who owns Haas and Mazak I will say there won't be another Haas added to my floor. Being able to run identical programs 10-30% faster is one of the more useful things about the mazak (I'm using mazak in my example but you could easily insert Mori)...and getting 25-50% more life out of tools is also one of the more useful and valuable things about the mazak.

Would I spend the same dollar for a Haas to do less? Nope. I wouldn't even spend within 25% less for a Haas when I know that it would cost me in time and tooling later.

Haas does have a lot going for it though. The control is super simple to use...of course so is the mazak control, Haas as a company/dealer outlet network has always seemed to be an easy one to deal with.

Oh, I make good of money with my Haas...and still like the machine...but it's the last one.

Speaking of Mori...the Mori salesgirl always liked to point out that Haas uses Mori's to make Haas's...It's NOT the other way around

I think people get offended when that is all they have and that is the only coolaid flavor they drink. I should probably stop feeding the troll.

I will give Tc1999 some credit. Where he lives, in California, all machines are basically a dime a dozen and Haas is made there and readily available. When I opened my first shop there, finding machines and tooling was very easy. Companies open and get big government, Ford or maybe aerospace contracts and go by machines, sometimes dozens of them. 90 days later the contracts fall through or they are never paid for their work and the machines are back on the market as used machines. Happens everyday in So Cal. It is a very fluid market, with bargains to be had everywhere.

That close proximity makes the price of those machines much lower than they would be in other markets. In the Midwest, East coast and here in Southern Florida it is a much different story. To even get a machine here with rigging and all may be upwards of $4,000 to $5,000 depending on where it comes from. You should not be too bad in Vegas and should be able to get a bargain either locally or out of the LA area.

Most of what gets to South Florida, if not snapped up right away, goes on a boat and goes overseas, where there is heavy demand for machine tools. Trying to find even manual machines here can be a real problem. With the economy being flat, not too bad right now, but I know of not one Haas for sale anywhere near here. I know, I watch. My last one came from New York. Buying used machines sight unseen is lot of fun, but what I do know is that whatever might be wrong with it, I can get parts and repair it very reasonably if it is made by Haas.

So I'll give TC1999 his due, but his world is very different than most everyone else'. You get whatever you feel is best for you, but posting negative comments about any brand does no one any good here. Haas is no way the most rigid, but you can keep it going very easily and cheaply. My very first machine, a 1990 VF-1 is still running at the shop I sold in the Midwest. Obviously you were interested in getting a Haas or you would not be bit**ing about the price. If you want one, get, if you don't get something else. You are in a good place to choose from.

Whatever you get, learn to use it and make money, that's the bottom line.

Mike

Why don't you advertise for a "parts machine" on Surplusrecord.com or Machinetools.com You can place wanted ad's for free. Rich

I get why they are popular, I love mine.

I just don't get why people ask soo much for used ones when they and everyone else knows they aren't going to get anywhere near what they're asking, even when it sits for 6 months, they still don't lower the price.

Its the sellers attitudes that Iam not getting.

No joke, I just ran across an ad for a well used 2005 VF-2 for $40k!!!! Its been on Craigslist for well over 8 months and the owner still believes that new ones are $65k.... wrong... $48k. Woohoo 20% off for a 10 year old machine. LMAO

geoffw said:

No joke, I just ran across an ad for a well used 2005 VF-2 for $40k!!!! Its been on Craigslist for well over 8 months and the owner still believes that new ones are $65k.... wrong... $48k. Woohoo 20% off for a 10 year old machine. LMAO

Click to expand...

With what options, though? Base price on a Haas doesn't get a whole lot.

What a used Haas has going for it is that it's a known thing. No matter what you're buying, you know the parts will be available, reasonably priced and you've got both the HFO and independent Haas repair dudes who can get it up and running for you. Buying a Haas without inspecting it is probably a decently safe bet; $2-3k and you can probably get it working decently again is your worst case scenario.

Haas also has the brand name. Sure, actual machinists might shit on them... but I'm guessing Haas machines have been the workhorses that have made more fortunes for scrappy dudes starting the manufacturing hustle than any other brand of machine tool - by far. Hell, all the really big Portland area shops - the guys with Makino and Mori multi-pallet cells, 5-Axis DMU-50s, Citizen swiss machines and all the high-tech, super efficient shit? Every single one still has the 2 or 3 Haas mills that they started the company with.

If you have really good hacking skills you can unlock a parameter and access the pot of gold, it was talked about in another thread. I agree that it is crazy what some people think their stuff is worth. Haas just happens to be the Toyota Tacoma (or Wrangler) of CNC, best resale value in the industry. Lots of factors, some make sense others don't, but there's no disputing that they are #1 holding value.

Aside from the fact you can get an old Haas running again for marginal coin is the fact that an older Mori / Mazak Okuma etc will cost you a fortune to get up and running if an issue is had.

Find out what a "good service tech" will run you per hour.
See how long it takes them to troubleshoot an older machine with little manufacturer support.
Try to buy an outdated board, motor, encoder...or take the time to have it repaired.
That inexpensive Mori you bought used just escalated and now that its running sweet...its worth no more then you paid. However, that Mori will outperform the old or new Haas...given the right work.


My other thoughts as to why prices are high...and stay high.
One...its very hard to negotiate up a price.
If machine is still in service pumping out parts each day without a need to sell...so what if the machine takes a year to sell...if you get your price your ahead of the game. How many dealers just toss pictures up on line with machine in service.

My dad took a cue from a friend of his...even if you don't want to sell. Figure a number that you'd be foolish to refuse and put a For Sale sign on it. Somebody comes along with the money in hand...take it.
We spent all winter rebuilding new motor for our boat, installed and boat ran fantastic. Fished it all year, then dad put a For Sale sign in the window which was the exact price of a friends boat he wanted to buy. Asking price was several times what we paid and much more then it was worth. It was almost a joke...but some guy walked down the dock one day and said he wanted it. Went for a ride, left and came back with the money...dad laughed as he called his buddy and told him if his boat was still for sale he wanted it.

Funny all the bitchin' about Haas that goes on in this forum, but no matter what they sell lots of machines, the old machines still fetch a more than fair (yes I am a Haas guy but even I will admit the used prices are very high) price, and they can do everything other cncs (in the same work envelope) can do. It seems all the bashing to Haas is more like some people trying to justify why they paid 50% more their (insert name here) machine... There is a guy around here that runs the crap out of his Haas machines and every 6 years gets 50% of what he paid for them and buys new ones. Like wheelie said, if you can get a mori for reasonable, why are you concerned with the Haas price, just shopping around or...??

SIM said:

Aside from the fact you can get an old Haas running again for marginal coin is the fact that an older Mori / Mazak Okuma etc will cost you a fortune to get up and running if an issue is had.

Find out what a "good service tech" will run you per hour.
See how long it takes them to troubleshoot an older machine with little manufacturer support.
Try to buy an outdated board, motor, encoder...or take the time to have it repaired.
That inexpensive Mori you bought used just escalated and now that its running sweet...its worth no more then you paid. However, that Mori will outperform the old or new Haas...given the right work.


My other thoughts as to why prices are high...and stay high.
One...its very hard to negotiate up a price.
If machine is still in service pumping out parts each day without a need to sell...so what if the machine takes a year to sell...if you get your price your ahead of the game. How many dealers just toss pictures up on line with machine in service.

My dad took a cue from a friend of his...even if you don't want to sell. Figure a number that you'd be foolish to refuse and put a For Sale sign on it. Somebody comes along with the money in hand...take it.
We spent all winter rebuilding new motor for our boat, installed and boat ran fantastic. Fished it all year, then dad put a For Sale sign in the window which was the exact price of a friends boat he wanted to buy. Asking price was several times what we paid and much more then it was worth. It was almost a joke...but some guy walked down the dock one day and said he wanted it. Went for a ride, left and came back with the money...dad laughed as he called his buddy and told him if his boat was still for sale he wanted it.

Click to expand...

I think that is the bottom line. Stuff is worth what people will pay for it...Haas is popular for (insert reason) and that is why they have the best resale. We can argue those reasons...but the result will continue to be the same - for how long, who knows.

Mike1974 said:

Funny all the bitchin' about Haas that goes on in this forum, but no matter what they sell lots of machines, the old machines still fetch a more than fair (yes I am a Haas guy but even I will admit the used prices are very high) price, and they can do everything other cncs (in the same work envelope) can do. It seems all the bashing to Haas is more like some people trying to justify why they paid 50% more their (insert name here) machine... There is a guy around here that runs the crap out of his Haas machines and every 6 years gets 50% of what he paid for them and buys new ones. Like wheelie said, if you can get a mori for reasonable, why are you concerned with the Haas price, just shopping around or...??

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Haas VF3 approx. 80k

Haas VF-3 | Haas Automation®, Inc. | CNC Machine Tools

Okuma Genos M560V approx. 120k

CNC Machine | Vertical Machining Center | GENOS M560 | VMC | Affordable Excellence

Okuma Millac 561V approx. 250k

CNC Vertical Machining Center | MILLAC 561V | Okuma

all are 40 x 20 VMC's

You get what you pay for and you buy what you need for the job. If you don't know the difference between the machines that's your fault.

There isn't a lot of excess value in any new HAAS. You can get a VF3 for 80K or you can get a Hardinge conquest 1000 with the Mits control. I'm not tripping over myself for the Hardinge but I've seen both and there is far more real machine in the conquest than the VF3. The service from Hardinge took a crap but honestly you don't seem to need much service.

HAAS sells for the same reason Mastercam sells, user base and familiarity. Is it the best value in mid range CAM? Not even close but it still sells.

Myself the Genos is the ticket, 50% more but it's more machine than the price reflects.

Edster said:

Haas VF3 approx. 80k

Haas VF-3 | Haas Automation®, Inc. | CNC Machine Tools

Okuma Genos M560V approx. 120k

CNC Machine | Vertical Machining Center | GENOS M560 | VMC | Affordable Excellence

Okuma Millac 561V approx. 250k

CNC Vertical Machining Center | MILLAC 561V | Okuma

all are 40 x 20 VMC's

You get what you pay for and you buy what you need for the job. If you don't know the difference between the machines that's your fault.

Click to expand...

Yep agree. What is funny are people that buy bare-bones stripped down Haas and expect it to run and hold up like the 250k machine. On the flip side, people (companies) buy the 250k machine thinking it is the magic bullet and it will solve their machining 'issues'. This - You get what you pay for and you buy what you need for the job is really what its all about. Sometimes Haas is the choice for your $30 widgets that you plan to sell out of your one man shop...

I have a Job Shop my HAAS machines run seven days a week. They don't brake down very often and when they do my HFO is on the way quickly. They have parts in stock they answer my emails in under an hour and they have helped with programing issues any time we have had one. HAAS is a nice fit for my shop and I will keep buying them. If I needed something else for the job I would have no problem buying it. Say what you want but back in the day FADAL and HAAS changed everything for guys who were starting small shops and could not afford Mori, Okuma or Hardinge. Although my first CNC lathe was a Hardinge CHNC II what a machine that was. Hardinge also was right there to start a lot of guys out. I bought CHNC from them over a beer at my back yard picnic table. Just sign here and it was on the way, no credit checks nothing. I bought three the first year like that. The sales guys name was Greg Ansline and he basically helped get my shop off the ground, he was a good guy. Wish I still had them.

Ron

tc1999 said:

Geof,


Speaking of Mori...the Mori salesgirl always liked to point out that Haas uses Mori's to make Haas's...It's NOT the other way around

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ahem, actually the haas factory is (also?) heavily invested in Mazak machinery.