Anybody have a Sundstrand hydro drive for a 10EE laying around?

[rimcanyon]

Dave,

You can right click on Nick's user name to send him a personal message or e-mail (if he has enabled e-mails). But I don't know if you're going to have any luck getting in touch with him, since he's only posted a few times and only to this thread.

Sundstrand-drive machines don't have a backgear unit, so your low-speed performance with a VFD is going to be pretty poor. Even if you did have one on hand, there isn't space to install it unless you carve a huge hole in the bulkhead behind the motor to make room. I would hate to see the old girl butchered up like that.

I hope you'll reconsider the conversion. An old-school automatic transmission mechanic or hydraulic pump mechanic might be able to fix the existing drive for you.

Cal

Hi Cal,

a VFD with a 10HP motor and no backgear would have better low RPM performance than a Sundstrand drive in good condition. For that matter, a VFD with 5HP motor and no backgear would be better than a Sundstrand drive at low RPM. I seldom use 500 RPM on mine.

DMTWO, the Sundstrand drive should run in reverse. Maybe it is just a matter of linkage adjustment.

Dave

 

[old_dave]

Very interesting Dave. I've wondered why Monarch used the Sundstrand drive in the first place only to shortly go to the motor-generator Ward Leonard drive in 1941 (according to the "standard" 10EE history). After all the Ward Leonard DC system was a well established technology.
David

 

[rimcanyon]

Old_dave, I can only speculate. In 1939, a lathe with a fluid drive was probably high on the cool factor. However, it only lasted two years before customers demanded the better low speed torque you could get from a DC motor. I found early on with my 1939 lathe, that low tpi threads were a challenge. If I set the speed low so that I could control start and stop, the drive would chatter unless the cut was light and the cutters were sharp. When I tried to take a heavier cut, the flat drive belt would come off the spindle (which protected the lathe over the last 76 years, and is one reason the lathe and drive are still running). Other than low tpi threading, I am almost always running the lathe at 700-2000 rpm. At those speeds it can take a good cut.

Dave

 

[Dmtwo]

Old_Dave,
Seems to be an unusual number of "Daves" in this thread. But I guess great minds do think alike!
I really appreciate your comments on low speed operation of your Sundstrand Hydro. I've not been able to experience it since I'm only able to get down to about 500 rpm. With that in mind, I'm going to put more effort into the conversion over the repair. This may have been the very reason Monarch went to the DC drive in such short order. How many operating Sundstrand drives do you guys think are still out there?
I restore old series Land Rovers and a similar discussion always comes up as to whether one should remain true to the original and keep the integrity or take advantage of some current technology to improve performance. I've come to the conclusion that it all depends on what you want the machine for: a collector piece or a daily driver.
Since this is my only lathe, I need a "daily driver" and will do my best to keep her true to her roots while modernizing her performance. Thanks again for your valuable input.

Dmtwo-Dave

 

[MARVINGARDENS]

Hi Dave.

I am looking forward to hearing about whatever solution you arrive at. My progress on my Sundstrand 10EE is proceeding very slowly as it seems there are always five other things I need to be doing instead of spending time in the shop. I did learn a bit more about the history of my machine recently. A little over ten years ago my 10EE went from running fine to not running at all. There was a German toolmaker living in southern California who did repairs on all of the shop's equipment. He rebuilt the Sundstrand drive and the lathe once again was fully operational when it was moved and then parked. It has sat for ten years and I don't know what will happen once I replace the fluids and attempt to power it up. Hopefully it will run but if not, I'll be waiting anxiously to see what solution you arrive at.

I'm not sure what speed ranges to expect with the Sundstrand drive. I don't expect it to perform like a more modern 10EE but hopefully it will do well enough to be useful. I can live with limitations as I am somewhat of an antique buff (cars and machinery) and enjoy things as they were once made. I have another lathe in the shop (a USAF South Bend Heavy 10) and while it is not a toolmakers lathe, it can complete most of the tasks required for my hobbyist needs. I hope to someday be able to locate and afford a long bed 10EE with metric capabilities but that is hoping, I'll just have to see what the future brings.

In the meantime, best of luck with your project and please keep us informed of your progress.

Regards.

Bob

 

[old_dave]

Old_dave, I can only speculate. In 1939, a lathe with a fluid drive was probably high on the cool factor. However, it only lasted two years before customers demanded the better low speed torque you could get from a DC motor. I found early on with my 1939 lathe, that low tpi threads were a challenge. If I set the speed low so that I could control start and stop, the drive would chatter unless the cut was light and the cutters were sharp. When I tried to take a heavier cut, the flat drive belt would come off the spindle (which protected the lathe over the last 76 years, and is one reason the lathe and drive are still running). Other than low tpi threading, I am almost always running the lathe at 700-2000 rpm. At those speeds it can take a good cut.

Dave

Thank you Dave-rimcanyon. Your comments about the short comings of the Sundstrand drive are very interesting. I'm sure the people at Monarch who had first hand knowledge of the drive choices made 75 years ago are long gone.
David

 

[nickscholtes]

Hello All!

I don't frequent this board at all, but I have been working with another Sundstrand guy, Mike Thomas, and he told me that there was some activity on this thread so I came and had a look. Good to see the activity!

I have a rather interesting (at least interesting to me!) update to tell about this thread. If one were to look all the way back to the beginning of this thread, you'd see that I had a hydrodrive that had failed and then I damaged it during the disassembly process. The update is that I was able to successfully repair the damaged casting on my Sundstrand hydrodrive and was able to rebuild the entire unit and get it back to functioning as good as new! I'm thrilled with this, as it took me about a year and a half to figure out how to fix it and to find the time to do it.

For the new guys that are looking to repair a Sundstrand, I will say this: It is actually an incredibly simple and incredibly robust piece of machinery. Since there is almost no literature available on the unit, I think that folks are timid about taking on a rebuild, and certainly so was I. However, with the help of Russ Kepler who was able to provide me with a manual on the unit, as well as the manual for my 10EE which covers some aspects of maintenance of the Sundstrand unit, along with a WHOLE BUNCH of studying the internals of the unit, I was able to learn all that I needed to know to repair the unit. Through the experience of repairing this unit, I will say that I feel I now know the inner working of the Sundstrand HydroDrive extremely well, and I feel that I can now be of assistance in the repair of any of the units that are out there needing repair. And a really important point is that needs to be made is that these units are just not that complicated, and any good mechanic/machinist can repair them, if given some guidance.

I am willing to help anyone who is interested in rebuilding/repairing their hydrodrive. I am willing to help by offering advice/consulting, or even by actually doing the repair for you as well.

I did a complete write-up of my rebuild, complete with pictures and videos. I put all of this info on DropBox, and can give anyone interested the link to the DropBox folder so they can see the pics/vids/write-up. I can even put the link here if that's acceptable to the forum, I just don't know the forum rules and I'm too lazy to go and look at them!

The biggest thing I can say is DON'T GIVE UP ON YOUR SUNDSTRAND!!! It's a great old antique, it's incredibly robust, and it powers the lathe more than well enough.

Also, regarding speed, my unit spins anywhere from a few RPM all the way up to a spindle speed of 3000 RPM, in forward. Operation is smooth throughout the speed range. Don't expect anything less from your drive, and if it's not giving you that performance, let's freshen it up and get it performing like it should!

One strange thing about my drive is that there is a speed limiter in the drive that limits the speed in reverse. It would be easy enough to remove this limiter, and I did remove it to see if it would spin the same speed in reverse that it does in forward, and it does. Ultimately though, I left the reducer in as it appears to be a part of the original casting. I have no idea why they would limit the speed in reverse, but they did. If anyone has any insight as to why they would want to limit the speed in reverse, please enlighten me.

I'm not entirely sure how to post contact info on this forum, but I'm happy to be contacted. Someone please enlighten me as to how to put my contact info out there. Otherwise, private message me and I'll send you my email address.

Keep the Sundstrand faith!

Nick

 

[Cal Haines]

Nick,

Thanks for the update. I'm glad that you managed to get the old girl running with her original drive!

I would really like to see your write up. Yes, you can put the link here. Please do!

How's the low-speed torque? Any issues threading? I would think that a hydrostatic transmission like that would have awesome low-end torque.

Cal

 

[nickscholtes]

Hi Cal,

Here is the link to the DropBox folder with all of the info. The info includes photos, videos, the HydroDrive manual, and my write-up.

Let me know if this link works.

Nick

Dropbox - Sundstrand Hydrodrive

 

[nickscholtes]

Cal,

You asked how the low speed torque is. I've threaded with this lathe for years and have never had a problem taking a fairly aggressive cut. For the work that I do with this lathe, I've never needed/wanted more torque. Now with the hydrodrive rebuilt, the low-end torque seems to be as good or better than it's ever been. One thing that is noticeable about the hydrodrive is if you set the speed to very slow, maybe like 5 rpm or so, the spindle doesn't spin at a constant speed, it kind of "hunts" a bit (speeds up and slows down). Even though it's doing this, it will still cut just fine. If I speed it up just slightly faster than that, the issue goes away and the spindle spins at constant speed.

Nick

 

[Cal Haines]

Nick,

Thanks so much for sharing all that information! (And sorry that it took me so long to say so.) Excellent write up, photos and videos.

Cal

 

[murphatthepoint]

hello Nick.

Thanks for the great thread. I have a 1939Sundstrand serial #7153 and I purchased a 10 horse motor as a backup. I will now do whatever is necessary to keep the original. How can I contact you if I have any questions.
Thanks. Jim Murphy. [email protected]
(619)994-9497

 

[nickscholtes]

Hi Jim,

I see from your post that folks can post their contact info on this forum. So I'll do mine. If anyone wants to contact me to talk about Sundstrand HydroDrives, feel free to give me a shout. I'm at:

Nick Scholtes
[email protected]
(815) 671-2512

Nick

 

[MARVINGARDENS]

Hi Nick.

I haven't been home to call you. I'll need to go through the 10EE, assess things, and give you a call. Think you so much for the information you placed in Dropbox. It is more than I ever hoped to find. I got surprised when I picked the machine up and found I had a steady rest after all. I can stop watching eBay now for a 1939 10EE steady rest. Chucks from my USAF South Bend Heavy 10 will work on the Monarch and a collect chuck was also found inside the machine. I have the end cover located, bought, and repaired now. I am actually getting optimistic about this project.

Thanks again.

Bob

Hi Cal,

Here is the link to the DropBox folder with all of the info. The info includes photos, videos, the HydroDrive manual, and my write-up.

Let me know if this link works.

Nick

Dropbox - Sundstrand Hydrodrive

 

[MARVINGARDENS]

Late to the party as usual.

I have been sidelined with spine surgery and my dad recently passed away after a lengthy illness. Pretty much no progress on my 10EE as what little shop time I've had has been spent getting my Baby Axelson cleaned up and running again. I looked at the Dropbox downloads this morning for the first time in depth. I just want to say thank you to Nick for sharing his efforts. I feel more optimistic about my 10EE than ever. My machine had been recently overhauled and running well when it was put away. Wear is minimal.....just lots of dirt from sitting. Looking at the manual gives me a feeling of confidence that I will be able to work out any problems that may surface. When we were moving my machine, we did discover the steady rest and collet adaptor that I didn't know was still there. I plan on making my 10EE my fall and winter project. As soon as I figure out a new place to host photos I will start posting photos again.

Thank you Nick.

Best regards.

Bob

Hi Cal,

Here is the link to the DropBox folder with all of the info. The info includes photos, videos, the HydroDrive manual, and my write-up.

Let me know if this link works.

Nick

Dropbox - Sundstrand Hydrodrive

 

[nickscholtes]

I noticed that someone named Dave added a bunch of photos and some videos to my Dropbox account today. These pics were obviously restoring a Sundstrand hydro unit, and the work that was being done was incredibly good!

I don't know anything about this person other than his name is Dave, and the audio doesn't work on the videos so I don't know what he's saying.

So, Dave, if you see this message, private message me on this forum or contact me directly. My contact info is available in earlier posts on this thread, but I'll also leave it here again:

Nick Scholtes
[email protected]
(815) 671-2512

 

[Cal Haines]

Nick, thanks for the update! It looks like Dave was working on his Sundstrand not too long after you.

I was able to play Dave's videos and the audio works. You might try using VLC Media Player, that's what I use.

Cal

 

[Dmtwo]

OK guys, First my apologies to the community for not getting back sooner on status and progress. Secondly for inadvertantly blowing up Nick Scholte's Sundstrand Drive Drop Box account when I was moving my drop box photos around. I've removed that unexplained data dump so Nick doesn't have to buy more storage and will try to find a way to provide access and explanation of MY Sundstrand tear down and rebuild. The explanation seems more of a time consuming (and less enjoyable)effort than the time consuming (but enjoyable) work of the re build itself. I have about 10 or 15 pages of a notebook that needs to be edited and formatted for posting along with photo/video explanations and once I got the Hydro done, I completed the cosmetic and refurb of the machine(most of this work is covered in myriad places on this 10EE forum) and I just wanted to see the old girl make chips.

Most importantly, let me Thank Nick Scholte. Without his work, I doubt I ever would have started the surgery. I hope that I'll be able to provide at least some level of technical and moral support that will encourage others in there quest to "keep it original"

So at this point I'll try providing a top level summary of the saga here, and if anyone needs specific information from my experience, please PM me and we'll connect. It may be that Cal would suggest starting a new thread on this entirely, but here goes.

I've outlined my options and needs in previous posts and when Nick came along with his experience I decided to go for it. If I found something irreperable I still had the VFD option (plan B). The Hydrodrive Tear Down and Repair was not at all difficult, but there were times I felt like a Plumber who'd been hired to do Brain Surgery! Notwithstanding, the patient bench tested well and I had the full range of RPM. More than a few months went by before I finished the rest of the machine refurb and could put the drive back in. Initial testing went well UNTIL while running at about 1500 rpm I went to neutral after noticing a vibration. Stood back and scratched my head, unsure of what would be causing it, threw it in forward and immediately heard the grind and clank and grind of some sort of failure. I didn't say one printable word for at least a day and a half!!

So OK...Plan B. Tired of not having a lathe and not having the confidence in knowing exactly what was wrong with the hydro this time I moved on to How to install a VFD and 5 hp AC motor. Again this forum was priceless in guiding my research. I just had to figure out how to do it without sacrificing the beautiful lines and original actuators like the speed control wheel, on/off rotary switch and drive engagement lever. Most VFD conversions I've seen had NEMA boxes hanging all over the Machine turning it into the Bride of Frankenstein. I didn't want that and didn't want to alter things in a way that would prevent the re installation of the original Hydrodrive (if I ever decided on a hydro Rebuild #2), this has become plan C but not a likely scenario since the VFD conversion is everything that I expected and more.

I'm certainly not proud of the failure but don't blame my skills... just a stupid mistake probably. My results won't be yours and Nick has proven that it's possible even if you open the case with too big a hammer! The first time, at 16, that I ever changed oil in a car I forgot to put the plug in the pan...so I'm still learning! If your thinking about rebuilding your Hydro, by all means do it. Keeping these remarkable machines in original state is a worthy and worthwhile pursuit.

A few random Sundstrand, before, during and after photos are attached. Hundreds more are available. Depending on responses I'll upload the VFD conversion details but it may be better to put that in a separate thread. I look forward to your comments and questions.

 

[murphatthepoint]

Sundstrand

Nick, thanks for the update! It looks like Dave was working on his Sundstrand not too long after you.

I was able to play Dave's videos and the audio works. You might try using VLC Media Player, that's what I use.

Cal

Can you show us some photos of your final lathe with the 5 hp and VFD.
Thanks. Jim Murphy