Haas Mini Mill, how old is too old?

[gregormarwick]

It sounds very plausible. Stuff in 1980 was expensive. A control alone cost the machine builder about $40,000. My lathe was the cheapest American sold. I believe the next size up was over 200. Comparable cheapest Cincinnati was $135,000. God knows what a G&L ran.

And this was 1980 dollars.

On the other hand, you were competing with manual machines, so for twice the hourly you could do ten times the work. So it wasn't all bad ... except for the electronics. They were not mature yet.

If the electronics were reliable, I bet most of those machines would be running today. In lathes, I don't think there's anything out there now that's comparable. That's why everyone talks little sissy cuts. Milling that works okay but for turning, it's a travesty.

Even the beloved Mazak quickturns are built flimsy compared to US lathes. We had one in kunshan and I was surprised by how cheesy it was. Sorry, toolcat

Heavy duty lathes still exist and get made.

Yes, if you have a little quickturn or similar you're going to be taking little cuts. I have never been impressed with Mazak generally, and don't get the love they receive on here.

Most of the taiwanese/korean builders have options for real heavy duty lathes though. Somewhere inbetween are modern machines from higher end builders with high powered integrated motor spindles that have a remarkable amount of torque. Motor technology is light years ahead of where it was in the 70s-80s.

 

[EmGo]

Most of the taiwanese/korean builders have options for real heavy duty lathes though.

We have different definitions for 'heavy duty'

 

[Garwood]

We have different definitions for 'heavy duty'

I've seen a few of Doosans newer heavy heavy lathes and they're beefy beefy.

30 tons and 75hp with gears and one hell of a chip conveyor.

I'd be proud to own one.

 

[EmGo]

I've seen a few of Doosans newer heavy heavy lathes and they're beefy beefy.

30 tons and 75hp with gears and one hell of a chip conveyor.

I'd be proud to own one.

I did a quick look and didn't see one like that, although a 6040 American Uniturn was 65,000 lbs and 100 hp machine tool duty rated, which means 150 hp for 15 minutes per hour ... and I'd much rather have a flatbed in that size than slant.

What I did see as the largest was an 800 Puma, 35 x 120, with 60 hp and 48,000 lbs.

A quick look at a standard ol 24" 1979 Cincinnati gives 24 x 60 and 75 hp and 36,000 lbs. Only 2/3 the swing, half the length, 2/3 the weight and more ponies. And they were dc ponies, not those pansy-ass ac things. Also remember that in 1980 everyone in the US used machine tool duty ratings, not the new shit that is the max you'll ever get without melting the motor.

I'm sure it's nice, doosan has an okay reputation but hard for me to get excited over something that has no relation to history and nothing that's really exceptional and it's certainly no world-beater for being almost as good as a runofthemill US lathe from 1980 -- that's fifty years ago.

I guess I'd be happy to have one, like a good refrigerator. But proud ? not so much. I'd look at a G&L and smile, or a K&T, or American Tool, or Devlieg. Or a Sundstrand vertical ? Shit-eating grin there, and we haven't even mentioned Ingersoll .... But this new stuff built by a soulless multinational conglomerate ? may as well get excited about a hammer

Let's not even talk taiwan, youji, puke. What a piece of crap and that's their famousest vtl.

 

[Garwood]

I did a quick look and didn't see one like that, although a 6040 American Uniturn was 65,000 lbs and 100 hp machine tool duty rated, which means 150 hp for 15 minutes per hour ... and I'd much rather have a flatbed in that size than slant.

What I did see as the largest was an 800 Puma, 35 x 120, with 60 hp and 48,000 lbs.

A quick look at a standard ol 24" 1979 Cincinnati gives 24 x 60 and 75 hp and 36,000 lbs. Only 2/3 the swing, half the length, 2/3 the weight and more ponies. And they were dc ponies, not those pansy-ass ac things. Also remember that in 1980 everyone in the US used machine tool duty ratings, not the new shit that is the max you'll ever get without melting the motor.

I'm sure it's nice, doosan has an okay reputation but hard for me to get excited over something that has no relation to history and nothing that's really exceptional and it's certainly no world-beater for being almost as good as a runofthemill US lathe from 1980 -- that's fifty years ago.

I guess I'd be happy to have one, like a good refrigerator. But proud ? not so much. I'd look at a G&L and smile, or a K&T, or American Tool, or Devlieg. Or a Sundstrand vertical ? Shit-eating grin there, and we haven't even mentioned Ingersoll .... But this new stuff built by a soulless multinational conglomerate ? may as well get excited about a hammer

Let's not even talk taiwan, youji, puke. What a piece of crap and that's their famousest vtl.

It all depends what you're doing I spose. I've had DC spindles and sure they had balls, but they also pull a gazillion times more amps than AC. I'd imagine a 100HP DC spindle probably requires a 200 amp 480V service just to run it. The higher end AC spindle motors of the past 20+ years are pretty amazing. I wouldn't be surprised if a late 90's 30HP Fanuc spindle motor could best any 30HP DC spindle motor of the 70's for torque from zero to 6000 RPM.

I've heard some older guys talk about the bigger American, Cincinnati and W&S CNC lathes. Like they could take a hell of a cut. But they broke down a lot electrically with shitty control integration and the chip control wasn't good. Way covers were shit. Repairs were difficult and expensive.

The only American made CNC lathes I have ever seen actually running in my geographical area (the PNW) in my lifetime (I'm 40) have both been a couple big flatbed Lodge and Shipley's with Fanuc 5T controls. I think they were similar (older version) to the big machines OX runs.

On the other side what I have seen tons of from the late 70's and early 80's are large running Mori SL and TL lathes, Big Okumas with Fanuc and OSP controls and I did see a monster old Mazak once. I don't remember what it was, It had some beef for a Mazak.

There was a member of this site a long time ago. Somewhere in the midwest that scrapped a 15" chuck Cincinnati CNC lathe of around 18 tons. It was comically heavy for the size of machine. I remember thinking how amazing that machine would be for the work I do and I spoke with the owner about buying it. He basically talked me out of it saying something like "Sure, it can take a cut, but everything else about it is shit". And the reality was it really was worth more in scrap than running parts. I think he'd had it for a very long time and I figured he'd know better than anyone.

 

[gregormarwick]

We have different definitions for 'heavy duty'

No, I don't think we do really.

HP means nothing on a lathe, torque means everything. Without seeing the torque curve of your old cincis et al. there's no way to make a comparison. 30-40 years ago DC motors were the kings of torque for sure, but time moves on.

Here: https://www.wardhitech.co.uk/catalogue/hi-tech-850-2
30 tonnes = 66000lbs.
6873Nm at the spindle = 5070 ft lbs

 

[EmGo]

HP means nothing on a lathe, torque means everything.

Silly. Horsepower is torque over time. When you make parts instantly then I'll go along with your claim.

btw, all those machines have gearboxes. They can take a cut.

Since neither of you have ever been anywhere near a 1980's US machine, I'll just step away from this conversation, as you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[gregormarwick]

Silly. Horsepower is torque over time. When you make parts instantly then I'll go along with your claim.

btw, all those machines have gearboxes. They can take a cut.

Since neither of you have ever been anywhere near a 1980's US machine, I'll just step away from this conversation, as you don't know what you are talking about.

Have you ever considered just admitting when you're wrong?

You do this same thing every time anyone calls out your bullshit.

 

[Garwood]

Since neither of you have ever been anywhere near a 1980's US machine, I'll just step away from this conversation, as you don't know what you are talking about.

They don't appear to be any of these left in the wild. It seams to have been that way for quite some time now.

 

[EmGo]

Have you ever considered just admitting when you're wrong?

You do this same thing every time anyone calls out your bullshit.

Oh absolutely wrong, but there's gonna be a whole bunch of guys who want their tuition money back for hearing the same thing in school.

Torque is only force. If the force is not exerted over time, then it belongs in the transporter room with scotty.

Force over time, that "m" thing in sfm, is ... ___________________ (fill in the blank for five points).

No time means no revolutions, which makes for a very ugly cut.

 

[gregormarwick]

Oh absolutely wrong, but there's gonna be a whole bunch of guys who want their tuition money back for hearing the same thing in school.

Torque is only force. If the force is not exerted over time, then it belongs in the transporter room with scotty.

Force over time, that "m" thing in sfm, is ... ___________________ (fill in the blank for five points).

No time means no revolutions, which makes for a very ugly cut.

Don't try and divert the argument.

Please do explain to me how a DC HP is better than an AC HP, and how either number has any bearing whatsoever on how big of a cut a machine can take.

Alternatively, present some literature with torque curves for your machines so we can compare.

As an exercise, I have two spindles, both are integrated motor with no gearbox. One is a 6000rpm BT50, the other is a 25000rpm HSK63. Which one do you think can take the biggest cut in steel with a 6" face mill? Oh, and both of them are 60KW/80HP.