Help ID thrust washer material from Ames horizontal mill

[wgambucci]

Hello- I recently bought an old Ames benchtop horizontal milling machine. It's the one with the overarm support described and pictured at the bottom of the page here:

Ames Milling Machine

When disassembling and cleaning the machine, I encountered red, nonmetallic thrust washers on the feed screws that allow everything turn very smoothly, even when the handwheels are snugged up tightly. Here's a link to a photo I took of one of the washers.

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

The one pictured is .040" thick with a wafer-like, sort of brittle feel, and perhaps a mildly abrasive texture.

Wondering if anybody can help me ID this material, as it seems to make a great thrust washer. It's very low-profile, and I'm interested in finding something similar to use on the cross slide and compound screws of my Logan lathe (which has some annoying end play in the slides related to the lack of thrust bearings).

After digging a bit online and comparing images I thought it might be some kind of phenolic wahser, but I'm not sure.

If phenolic, does anybody have a guess at what the base material might be, or if there is a modern day substitute for such a washer? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

I would love to avoid having to add needle roller bearings all over the place in my lathe slides when these red things seem to do the job perfectly on the Ames. On the other hand, if you think there's a reason to avoid using these, I'm all ears (eyes?).

Thanks!

Willie

 

[sfriedberg]

Can't tell for sure from the photos, but compressed fiber is/was a common material for such things, and it typically has that rec color and paper-like texture. You may find pre-made washers from compressed fiber, or possible sheet material from a place that sells gasket material.

 

[4GSR]

Probably made of "Micarta", type of fiber board. It's layers of linen cloth and sometimes glass fiber, depending on the grade you buy. Used to make washers out of it for similar purpose many years ago. McMaster-Carr should have it, it comes in various thicknesses from about 1/64" and up. I have a piece here that is close to 2" thick left over from my dads shop.
Ken

 

[L Vanice]

Hardinge also used red fiber washers on their early lathe spindles. There was a conventional ball thrust bearing at the left end of the cone pulley to take drilling and turning thrust. The fiber washer got oil from the adjacent right hand cast iron spindle bearing. There was an adjustment nut in the step pulley, which I set to leave about .001" of end play. I do not think there should be a preload on the fiber when it is used with a rotating part. But Hardinge also used the same washers on their manual collet drawbars, so they can stand a static compressive load.

Fiber was one of the first plastics. The material is still made. It is not phenolic or any of the more modern plastics.

Vulcanized Fibre Washers On New Process Fibre Company, Inc.
Seastrom Manufacturing - Round flat washers in fibre.
Fiber Washers - Washers - Fasteners | LawsonProducts.com

Larry

 

[thermite]

Hello- I recently bought an old Ames benchtop horizontal milling machine. It's the one with the overarm support described and pictured at the bottom of the page here:

Ames Milling Machine

When disassembling and cleaning the machine, I encountered red, nonmetallic thrust washers on the feed screws that allow everything turn very smoothly, even when the handwheels are snugged up tightly. Here's a link to a photo I took of one of the washers.

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

The one pictured is .040" thick with a wafer-like, sort of brittle feel, and perhaps a mildly abrasive texture.

Wondering if anybody can help me ID this material, as it seems to make a great thrust washer. It's very low-profile, and I'm interested in finding something similar to use on the cross slide and compound screws of my Logan lathe (which has some annoying end play in the slides related to the lack of thrust bearings).

After digging a bit online and comparing images I thought it might be some kind of phenolic wahser, but I'm not sure.

If phenolic, does anybody have a guess at what the base material might be, or if there is a modern day substitute for such a washer? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

I would love to avoid having to add needle roller bearings all over the place in my lathe slides when these red things seem to do the job perfectly on the Ames. On the other hand, if you think there's a reason to avoid using these, I'm all ears (eyes?).

Thanks!

Willie

The fiber obviously stood the test of time on your mill. They haven't impressed me in electric motors nearly as well, and I'd not want them near a Logan where pressures are higher!

Needle or roller bearings would be too much like work. They are not cheap, and they need more space and appropriate thrust faces to bear against that were not in the original design. Not really needed, anyway.

I'd prefer replacing the lot of the fiber ones with Oilite Bronze.

Chrysler didn't invent Oilite until 1931, and "Super" Oilite, Oilite II, and Oilite 16 (Copper-IRON Bronzes, those last three, and serious-durable) until several years later, or Ames might have used those.

There are MANY choices of stock "washer" sizes of Oilite readily available, so you might not even have to turn or ream very much, just drop them into place and carry on with the next challenge.

My next preference would be solid "bearing" Bronze. Not self-lubricating, as the Oilite tribe are, but better under pressure for wear than either of fiber or Copper-Tin Oilite "one".

The Copper-Iron Oilites would be serious overkill, but if you care to GO there, you can buy a bar of it, and ... you DO have that Logan lathe looking for something useful to do, yah?



Razor SHARP HSS, NO abrasives for "adjusting". The grit embeds in the 35% void areas, and then you have an aggressive form of lap instead of a bearing.

 

[Alberic]

HI Willie,

I've ended up tearing down and fixing a whole swarm of various Ames machines over the years.
Near as I can figure, the washers really are micarta, which you can still get. I've seen them in various states of wear, from what looked like 'never even installed' to 'shattered remnants', and they all looked like red micarta. FWIW.

OTOH, since you're not really repairing an Ames, the recommendation for oilite bronze from earlier in the thread might be a good one.

Best of luck,
Brian.
PS--> you've got the overarm mill? Bastard! Mine lacks the overarm. What's your serial #? I'm trying to keep a list of 'last sightings'.

 

[thermite]

you've got the overarm mill? Bastard! Mine lacks the overarm. What's your serial #? I'm trying to keep a list of 'last sightings'.

An over-arm to DO what over-arms NEED to DO, eg: stabilize an arbour, not just look original, is actually NOT hard to fab.

Lay an eyeball on it and do a bit of plotting and scheming.

Heavy-wall round tube will work. So will medium-wall rectangular. Twins are OK. Even a triangulated truss, tower-crane boom style.

You are not meant to try to out-hog a K&T with it.

 

[Alberic]

Don't actually *need* an O'arm machine of that scale, I just wanted an original O'arm machine.
I've got a for-real South Bend Horizontal, nevermind the modern CNC's that actually pay the rent. The Ames's are just a ?Hobby? that I got into somehow.

Regards,
Brian

 

[thermite]

Don't actually *need* an O'arm machine of that scale, I just wanted an original O'arm machine.
I've got a for-real South Bend Horizontal, nevermind the modern CNC's that actually pay the rent. The Ames's are just a ?Hobby? that I got into somehow.

Regards,
Brian

ISTR the "real" SB Horizontal is actually a re-badged English-made light/medium, and a fairly good one for its size class.

Elliot, was it?

 

[Robert Lang]

Hardinge also used red fiber washers on their early lathe spindles. There was a conventional ball thrust bearing at the left end of the cone pulley to take drilling and turning thrust. The fiber washer got oil from the adjacent right hand cast iron spindle bearing. There was an adjustment nut in the step pulley, which I set to leave about .001" of end play. I do not think there should be a preload on the fiber when it is used with a rotating part. But Hardinge also used the same washers on their manual collet drawbars, so they can stand a static compressive load.

Fiber was one of the first plastics. The material is still made. It is not phenolic or any of the more modern plastics.

Vulcanized Fibre Washers On New Process Fibre Company, Inc.
Seastrom Manufacturing - Round flat washers in fibre.
Fiber Washers - Washers - Fasteners | LawsonProducts.com

Larry

Larry is right on this. It is not Phenolic or Micarta.
It is Vulcanized Fibre. It can withstand extremely high pressures and with minimal wear.

Still being made. Made in red, sometimes called brick red, black and grey.
This is what was used by machine tool makers.
Usually made from cotton cellulose fiber.

Vulcanized fibre - Wikipedia

Vulcanex(R) Vulcanized Fiber: Oliner Fibre

Rob

 

[wgambucci]

Thank you all for your responses! I really appreciate the insight.

I'm going with the vulcanized fibre, and keeping Oilite in mind as an alternative. Thanks again.

Willie

 

[wgambucci]

HI Willie,

PS--> you've got the overarm mill? Bastard! Mine lacks the overarm. What's your serial #? I'm trying to keep a list of 'last sightings'.

Hey Brian- Serial# is 857. Sorry!! If it makes you feel better, I probably paid too much for it, and don't have the dividing head or many collets