Just bought my first Wire EDM

[SteveEx30]

I have a shop full of Mitsubishi. And yes, a 1 time payment to register as many machines as you have is quite fair. Their email/phone support is outstanding. And they still support their old machines.

Makino was a yearly fee if I remember correctly.

Nonetheless, all manufacturers are similar for support costs. Its just the cost of doing business...

 

[AMCmatt]

Mitsubishi definitely has a friendship payment too, and I think they stick to it.

If it makes you feel any better, 3 years ago I left a shop after 20 years running, at the time I left, 18 Fanuc wires. I'm a big fan of them. The place I'm at now has a Makino so I had yet another machine to learn.

At this point I would put the Makino on par with the Fanuc. I think Makino's tech is better developed and I like how they set up the footprint on the U3 and U6.

That is encouraging. At this point I am pretty committed to Makino for the time being. It is nice to hear from someone who knows both of them for sure. I certainly don't think I picked badly. My leaning toward fanuc was merely for local tech support, since I have several people I could lean on. Also, the scuttlebutt among service guys is that the best guy in utah for EDM happens to be a Fanuc tech. Unfortunately, I had an old broken down fanuc for a while and he didn't win me over when I was trying to get it fixed and working. My biggest fear on getting an EDM was having someone that could work on it.

My leaning toward Makino was several things, not the least of which is I like the "one piece" design and footprint, the weight was a good thing, although I know wire edm's don't rapid around at Mach 27 like modern machines, I still think it can't hurt. I liked the water being in the machine for temp stability. The control looked nice, but I have ran enough Fanuc controls they don't scare me. When I read that the guides were supposed to last xx times longer than "normal" or conventional guides, I thought it seemed pretty great. Overall, I kinda wanted the makino over the fanuc, but honestly, it was just my best educated guess. I am confident the machine can do much much more than I am even remotely capable of at this point but I also like not wondering if I should've gotten something better and I can certainly grow into this one. Now, I just need to find the time to learn it and explore its capabilities. I need more employees... like everyone.... finding remotely qualified people is definitely the crux of my growth right now. That and being old and tired..... lol..

 

[AMCmatt]

I have a shop full of Mitsubishi. And yes, a 1 time payment to register as many machines as you have is quite fair. Their email/phone support is outstanding. And they still support their old machines.

Makino was a yearly fee if I remember correctly.

Nonetheless, all manufacturers are similar for support costs. Its just the cost of doing business...

I had heard that they charged and that they would keep your machine updated to the most current software the control would support and that their tech support was really good. Rumor is they have one of every machine they have ever made sitting on the floor and they can walk up to it and work through things on the phone, and that they still have parts support for everything they made. Overall the mitsubishi sounded like a pretty good bet too. I wasn't against them. In fact there was a small SUPER decked out one that came up to auction with almost no hours on it that was coming out of the denver mint(if I remember correctly). It just went for more money than I had, but It had the super fine finish option and about everything you could add to it. It was a good deal, but just smaller than I wanted and too pricey. It seems most of the mistubishi and fanuc's that come up are all either really old, really small or both. I watched for a year, and hit a weird pocket of bigger makinos that all popped up within about 2 months of eachother. I got this one but I was really eyeballing one that was 2 years newer (2016) that was coming up a week later. I put my bid on this one and walked away with mixed feelings. I ended up winning it. The one I wanted the next week, actually went for $2500 less, which was a bummer.. but Oh well. Not complaining.

 

[SteveEx30]

Funny you say that, I was on the phone with support a few months ago and the guy walked back to their "museum" to confirm something on a machine for me. That's pretty cool.

Your Makino is an awesome machine. It was a great investment and you will love it. I enjoyed running their Sinkers/wires back in the day.

 

[Don Davis 87]

Hey all! long time lurker, first time poster.

I just bought my first wire EDM at auction yesterday, a 2014 Makino U6 HEAT. I have been machining for 30 years on many machines and industries, so not a total newby to things, and I have been around a handful of Fanuc wire EDM's, but have never actually ran one. Hoping to get some insight either good or bad on my new aquisition. My shop is a job shop, we serve several industries and fill in for other local shops, so I don't have any one or two things I will be doing on it, I just know how valuable it was for day to day stuff and repeatedly wish I had a wire for specific features on parts. It isn't always the fastest, but sometimes easier is worth the longer cycle time, about 90% of what we do is qty's of 5 or less.

Mostly, I would just like to announce I will be around here a bit more now and would also like to know if anyone has any suggestions on:
1. Anything I "should absolutely make sure they don't forget" when they start prepping/loading it.
2. Anything I should special request they do when they prep it for shipping.
3. Anything besides wire and filters I should make sure I have before it shows up.
4. Just generally anything in particular I should check immediately once it gets here and unwrapped.

I am pretty excited and also pretty terrified right now. I know EDM's can be pretty finicky machines and aren't usually for the faint of heart, but I also know how handy they are. Hoping the Makino U6 is a solid battle proven machine and I didn't just pick the worst thing to learn EDM on. LOL... Thanks in advance, Matt.

I ran 4 Duo 43 Makino’s for about a year, they worked fine and were not difficult to learn. Make sure to get your hands on a operator manual as that will have most of the answers you will need. Also Makino applications was helpful over the phone. Before you start using it, clean anything you can, like mostly any machine there are far fewer problems if you just stay after it. Good luck with your new machine. Don

 

[AMCmatt]

I ran 4 Duo 43 Makino’s for about a year, they worked fine and were not difficult to learn. Make sure to get your hands on a operator manual as that will have most of the answers you will need. Also Makino applications was helpful over the phone. Before you start using it, clean anything you can, like mostly any machine there are far fewer problems if you just stay after it. Good luck with your new machine. Don

Yep. we have been using it. I have been making parts, but its pretty obvious I have a bit to learn. They will actually be here in a couple of days for some onsite training. Hoping that clears up a ton of things. I did go through and clean everything I dared to take out. I even wiped the ballscrews down with a rag to get the grease off them in case they got all full of grit in transport. I re-greased it of course.. I have all the standard consumables either on hand or on order and will go through it all when he is here training.

Right now, my biggest hurdle is just getting the thing to cut at a reasonable speed. It runs SO SLOW.... It will tell me based on spark conditions that it should be doing .099" a minute and I get .025 if I am lucky.... etc. I don't understand why that is. I have made sure my energizing plates are all in new positions, my filters say they are still good, my conductivity is great... It just won't go as fast as it says it will. Even my finish passes are half or less speed.... I can't find a feedrate override anywhere, so..... I don't know... hopefully it is something easy and obvious...

 

[SeymourDumore]

Right now, my biggest hurdle is just getting the thing to cut at a reasonable speed. It runs SO SLOW.... It will tell me based on spark conditions that it should be doing .099" a minute and I get .025 if I am lucky.... etc. I don't understand why that is. I have made sure my energizing plates are all in new positions, my filters say they are still good, my conductivity is great... It just won't go as fast as it says it will. Even my finish passes are half or less speed.... I can't find a feedrate override anywhere, so..... I don't know... hopefully it is something easy and obvious...

OK, then there is a possibility that someone may have altered the techs in the machine.
You can re-initialize all the techs and restore the original factory settings with just a couple of clicks.
Honestly, the technician or apps guy coming out may do that for you right out of the gate.

As far as the feedrate override, the closest thing to that is the horizontal slider in the middle of your screen.
What that does is adjusts the sensitivity of the control, and changes some of the tech settings to a more or less aggressive strategy.
It is neutral when it's in the middle, no adjustment to any of the tech values.

 

[AMCmatt]

that's interesting. I will at least ask him about doing that. up until yesterday I had to have the slider almost all the way to safest to keep my wire from breaking. I would move the slider to the middle and it would go for a while and break, it just ended up being faster not having to restart the damn program. Even watching the feedrates on that though, it never even came close to right. I just finished an experiment part, and I ran the precision 5 pass for it as I was curious how flat and parallel I could get the flat plate. the last 2 finish passes actually ran at the expected rates, or at least within the green on the feedrate, but I also noticed they weren't even touching anything... every blue moon it would find a high spot and spark, but mostly it just trucked around at .417 IPM and was happy doing that...I hope he can get this thing dialed in if nothing else. and show me how to do it and what to watch for... Hoping the exhorbatant fee is worth it.

 

[AMCmatt]

obviously I have no idea what the previous owner did with this machine, and I could be completely off base, but I get the impression it was used in a production type setting and they just did a part or two on it... Not sure why I think that, just do. they wiped their programs out, so no real basis for that thought. It did have a fixture permanently bolted to it that they removed. It looked like some sort of rotary fixture. I was really hoping they didn't remove it since it was in the pic in the auction. They went through the trouble to run an airline and everything to the front of the machine for it and added in a separate regulator for it. That is mostly where my idea comes from.

 

[SeymourDumore]

In the RUN screen, click on CONDITION, the click the CONDITION LIST button.
You'll get the list of technologies that are in the machine.
The first column is the technology number, and then there is a blue "i" icon.
If you click the "i" icon, you get a small screen telling you if there are any changed elements for that tech from the original.

 

[AMCmatt]

Interesting. I just checked the 5 conditions that I used for this part and they all say no changes....... So bummer... I guess....LOL..

 

[AMCmatt]

In the RUN screen, click on CONDITION, the click the CONDITION LIST button.
You'll get the list of technologies that are in the machine.
The first column is the technology number, and then there is a blue "i" icon.
If you click the "i" icon, you get a small screen telling you if there are any changed elements for that tech from the original.

I also just went through and randomly looked at a handful and they all say no changes. but towards the end of the list, it looks like there are some reserved for users to create and there are some in the 8900's and a few in the 9000's. one of the 8900's has a changed element, not sure what changed except it looks like the wire diam.

 

[SeymourDumore]

I don't have the machine screen in front of me, but there is a way to re-initialize all techs to the factory conditions just in case that is what the issue is.

Beyond that, where do your wirebreaks happen?
When they happen, raise the Z-head and tell us what you see?
Is the wire hanging from the upper head?
Is the wire sticking up from the workpiece?

BTW, the 9000-s are your customized conditions. You can modify a standard condition dedicated to a job, and save it there to recall later.

 

[AMCmatt]

I don't have the machine screen in front of me, but there is a way to re-initialize all techs to the factory conditions just in case that is what the issue is.

Beyond that, where do your wirebreaks happen?
When they happen, raise the Z-head and tell us what you see?
Is the wire hanging from the upper head?
Is the wire sticking up from the workpiece?

So, I have been pretty lax on getting my top and bottom nozzles to within.02 as per the manual. I usually just pick “both away” settings and call it good. On this last part I took the time to get them within about .015 and I had WAY less breaks. They actually only happened twice. Once because I was getting adventurous and had the slider all the way right and once because the material was stress relieving and pinched it. Usually when it breaks it’s through the part and the broken end is actually in the lower head. Which I always find curious.

 

[SeymourDumore]

Both away is safe enough, but you still need to consider if it's varying thickness or not.
Coming from a Brother, I was absolutely overwhelmed by all the individual settings Makino has for a condition.
Even after 8 years, I have some parts that are done faster on the Brother than the U3.
Not because a 25 year old machine is faster, rather that I didn't care to take the time to dial in the Makino conditions for the part itself.
I have ( production ) cuts that vary from .15 thick to 3" thick. There is just no off the shelf Makino tech to accommodate a cutting speed that varies from .09 in the thick to .9 in the thin sections.
Get ahold of the apps guy, he will be able to guide you how to modify some of the techs.

With wirebreaks in the lower head though .... I am guessing at wire speed or additional tension from the tension roller.
The wire is at it's weakest after it's gone through all the material it needs to cut, but it still should have enough strength to make it to the wire bin.

If you have the double groove tension roller, make sure that the groove depths are pretty much equal.
They don't really need to be a specific diameter per se, but they do need to be pretty close to each other.

How do you know it's in the lower head vs. in-the-cut?

 

[AMCmatt]

Both away is safe enough, but you still need to consider if it's varying thickness or not.
Coming from a Brother, I was absolutely overwhelmed by all the individual settings Makino has for a condition.
Even after 8 years, I have some parts that are done faster on the Brother than the U3.
Not because a 25 year old machine is faster, rather that I didn't care to take the time to dial in the Makino conditions for the part itself.
I have ( production ) cuts that vary from .15 thick to 3" thick. There is just no off the shelf Makino tech to accommodate a cutting speed that varies from .09 in the thick to .9 in the thin sections.
Get ahold of the apps guy, he will be able to guide you how to modify some of the techs.

With wirebreaks in the lower head though .... I am guessing at wire speed or additional tension from the tension roller.
The wire is at it's weakest after it's gone through all the material it needs to cut, but it still should have enough strength to make it to the wire bin.

If you have the double groove tension roller, make sure that the groove depths are pretty much equal.
They don't really need to be a specific diameter per se, but they do need to be pretty close to each other.

How do you know it's in the lower head vs. in-the-cut?

Interesting. I guess since this is my first wife I don’t have to worry about having easier machines. Lol!
I don’t know how much variation causes issues but most of my stuff hasn’t been too varied. Maybe different features at different thickness but not in a continuous cut. Like a center hub with a spline and outer flange that’s thinner.
I would be shocked if my wire tension is correct. I haven’t looked at it or tried to check it since I knew I was going to have someone eventually go through it with me. I have 2 different tension gages so when he’s here we’ll check it. I have been assuming most of my issues are things like that. Well. Hoping they are anyway. I guess since the end of the wire is usually 1/4-1/2” into the lower nozzle I assumed I was breaking in there and not in the cut but I guess it could be breaking and keep pushing a bit. It hasn’t really occurred to me about the weakening of the wire from the cut….that’s a facepalm mr obvious moment….

 

[SeymourDumore]

Nope, not likely to push the wire into the lower cup.
Suspicion would be the cooling of the lower power contact, but I don't know how to check it.
I do know what to do for wire breaks in the upper head due to lack of coolant flow, but not sure about the lower head ....
Maybe call Makino and find out if there is a separate water jet going to the lower power contact as there is one for the upper?

 

[AMCmatt]

I will ask him about this today. He stopped by yesterday to get a feel for the place and we talked about things and he seems confident we will get everything worked out. as to the extra slow issue, he had a couple of ideas, but we will see what we find as we go through the machine. He did suggest one possibility as corrosion on the wire contacts..... Hopefully that isn't it, but at the very least, it is fixable... we have a lot to look at.. Hopefully it is just the standare "Matt" issue and not a machine issue...

 

[Don Davis 87]

OK, then there is a possibility that someone may have altered the techs in the machine.
You can re-initialize all the techs and restore the original factory settings with just a couple of clicks.
Honestly, the technician or apps guy coming out may do that for you right out of the gate.

As far as the feedrate override, the closest thing to that is the horizontal slider in the middle of your screen.
What that does is adjusts the sensitivity of the control, and changes some of the tech settings to a more or less aggressive strategy.
It is neutral when it's in the middle, no adjustment to any of the tech values.

First thing to realize is they all lie a bit regarding top speed, if brand new, in laboratory conditions they maybe got those numbers at some point. 1st, The distance of your flush cups from the surfaces of the material you are cutting is important to cutting speed. 2nd, straight cuts are faster then taper cuts. 3rd cutting conditions should set according to "the material being cut, thickness, wire diameter. Your cutting conditions flush pressure for rough and finish cuts, servo voltage, voltage, on and off and your wire offsets. The Duo 43 had and internal catalog file where you could easily grab the suggested conditions and put them right into your program header. Sodick's work the same way I run one every day. It seems extremely slow at first because they are slow BUT, while its running there is no need to watch it, you can write another program, or make parts on your other machines while its running. you will figure it out and you'll start to see the benefits of having on around.

 

[AMCmatt]

Right, I understand them being slow. At least I thought I would understand that. sometimes the reality is a swift slap though. I worked around 2 of them for almost 10 years, but I didn't RUN them. there is a big difference between seeing they are slow and waiting specifically for a part and waiting for the paint to dry, I mean the part to finish.... LOL... That being said, I am thinking this makino guy is going to get it going like a ball of fire. We should find out tomorrow. we did some alignment test cuts today and it cut 2" thick and ran really close to the advertised speeed. The guy did suggest that it COULD be some corrosion on the wires since it is an older machine and maybe if we can't figure anything else out, that it might be worth cleaning all of the connection... Hoping it isn't that, but it does make sense and at least gives another glimmer of hope..

well, first day of training went absolutely SPECTACULAR... Holy crap.... There were MANY issues, almost all of them alignment, I did get commended on my cleaning, but the thing has clearly been crashed and everything was clear out of whack. And today, I got to see what high speed threading ACTUALLY looks like........ I about went diving for the bunker when that thing took off and threaded in about .00000004 seconds flat from 6" up..... through a .065 hole no less.... I am seriously impressed with the machine and the makino guy. And honestly, I am not very easily impressed... I now understand why everyone likes these machines so much.. It will be a really fun journey learning to harness this thing once I get a decent handle on the basics..