My "new" Deckel FP2NC

[hanermo]

Excuse me if I´m all wet, but..

I really thought that spare 3-phase motors with a few caps make "real", "perfect", 3-phase electricity.
And since 3P motors are cheap, used, are the optimal $ solution in many ways.

Is this somehow discredited ?
Or are there some limits re: size ?

I seem to recall 10HP, and maybe more, were successfully used.

And at least some have mentioned using them on Haas stuff, ie 7-12-25 kW.
For years, successfully.

Not arguing - just interested to learn.
To my mind/theory/understanding, the spare 3-phase motor works really well, as I understand it.


Secondary Q.
Can one use a slow(er) 3-phase motor ?
Ie is a 1100 vs 1800 -ish motor as good ?

The only 3-phase stuff I use/wired are VFDs, and work fine.
The old == 1940 ? - 1950 ? bridgeport motor runs fine on a hitachi VFD.

So, since I know nothing about generating 3-phase, I thought I would ask the more experienced/knowledgeable guys.
My Q. is why does one want a PP ?

If wishes were fishes I'd have bought the PP. Of course that's what I said last time I bought a rotary and now with the addition of a second one I'm almost halfway to the cost of a PP. Maybe if I stop buying machines I'll have the money to upgrade to a PP. :-)

Teryk

 

[adh2000]

The PP creates three phase power that looks the same on all three legs, same voltage, same source impedance. The rotary converters do not. The PP can both source and sink power with near zero source impedance, just like utility power, not like rotary phase converter power. These features don't always matter, but often do.

 

[traditional-tools]

My Q. is why does one want a PP ?

Primarily for noise concerns. The PP is near silent, where a RPC hums continuously in the background.

VFD is also a good option up to about 3HP, but above they tend to get pricey also...but you can find some for 5HP that aren't that badly priced, so it all depends on what exactly one needs power wise, and whether they can tolerate the noise of an RPC.

 

[Milacron]

Primarily for noise concerns. The PP is near silent, where a RPC hums continuously in the background.

VFD is also a good option up to about 3HP, but above they tend to get pricey also...but you can find some for 5HP that aren't that badly priced, so it all depends on what exactly one needs power wise, and whether they can tolerate the noise of an RPC.

WIth me it's not so much the noise but the fact you can turn the PP on once for all day and not be the least concerned with the power it might use when it's not running a machine. Even if you forget to turn it off after you leave, no big deal.

Also a 20 hp PP will run a 20 hp machine...even one under load. Some hard to start 20 hp machines need a 40 hp rotary phase converter. Also the PP current is like true 3 phase and the rotary phase current is never quite as close to true 3 phase, thus being problematic for some CNC machines that might need perfect quality power.

I would literally never have bought the building flexspace I am in now if PP didn't exist as I am used to having true 3 phase in previous buildings and knew that would be unlikely to get in this building due to none of the other owners (in the adjoining flexspaces) needing it. Now I have a better building in a much better area right on major highway and 20 hp PP is all I need so far.

 

[mTeryk]

Question, where is the z axis tachogenerator? I've cleaned the x and y already. Ross mentioned it when I was picking up the mill, but I have forgotten. It's not in my manual and, in a quick search of the forum, I can't find the info. I'm on my phone here at the shop so not very efficient at searching.

Thanks

 

[Milacron]

Question, where is the z axis tachogenerator? I've cleaned the x and y already. Ross mentioned it when I was picking up the mill, but I have forgotten. It's not in my manual and, in a quick search of the forum, I can't find the info. I'm on my phone here at the shop so not very efficient at searching.

Thanks

Remove the left side plastic cover and you will see the Z servo standing upright with tach on top.

 

[Milacron]

I call it rustic chic

The primary limiting factor for me is that I'm in a rental. I've wired it myself and bolted some stuff to the floor but there's only so much I'm willing to do to a building that I'll only be in for a couple more years at the most. I have big plans for when I own my own space but for now I have to enjoy the "character of the building"

Oh...hadn't thought of that.. 10-4 then. My first machine shop was in the basement of a rental house. Due to slope of the land there was a full wall and door entrance from the backyard.....but no garage door. So I secretely removed all fasteners of the wall top and bottom and added hinges so I could swing open the entire wall when necessary to move machines in or out.

Can't remember now if the landlord ever caught me in the act with the wall open but I think he was ok with it. Biggest problem was heavy rains where the water would come thru the cinderblocks under the earth and flood the floor an inch deep sometimes....that was the most ridiculous issue.

 

[mTeryk]

Remove the left side plastic cover and you will see the Z servo standing upright with tach on top.

I could be blind but I don't see it. Is it under the handwheel on the other side, maybe? Edit : nope

Teryk

 

[AlfaGTA]

Now remember we talked about this...
Remove the panel off the operators side...remove the three Allen bolts from the "Z" axis handwheel mounting and pull the shaft back...No need to disconnect the interlock switch, should be enough slack in the cable...
Once the shaft is pulled back...return to the opposite side of the machine and remove the 3 Allen bolts that are in the flange of that green casting and lift it straight up....
There you will find the tach.....There is a coupling disc between the motor shaft and that bevel gear drive (handwheel) that you must e4ngage when reassembling...

Reassembly is the reverse....

Cheers Ross

 

[mTeryk]

Thanks Ross

I do remember talking about it, however, some of the details slipped past me. :-)

Teryk

 

[Colt45]

Congrats on the machine, nice to see a Deckel get a new caretaker and stay in the family.
PS nice touch of Ross to throw in the coolguy orange mounting feet!

 

[mTeryk]

PS nice touch of Ross to throw in the coolguy orange mounting feet!

I know. Kind of makes the FP1 look kind of low class just sitting on the concrete. Gonna have to take care of that at some point.

 

[deckeldoctor]

WAY LUBE

Use Vactra 4 VG 220 !

Program M7(lube Cycles) on separate line more often in your programs and press the lube button more often!

Way lube is cheap compared to scrapping ways of a machine!

Yes I know it makes a mess on the bottom of the machine base!

Line the bottom base of the machine with "PIG MATS PADS or TUBES" oil absorbent products.

 

[mTeryk]

WAY LUBE

Use Vactra 4 VG 220 !

Program M7(lube Cycles) on separate line more often in your programs and press the lube button more often!

Way lube is cheap compared to scrapping ways of a machine!

Yes I know it makes a mess on the bottom of the machine base!

Line the bottom base of the machine with "PIG MATS PADS or TUBES" oil absorbent products.

I just bought 5 gallons of the Vacuoline 1419 so I'm set for a little bit on way oil at least($105 ouch!) .

Your mention of the PIG MATS is timely, however. I just picked up what looks to be a stock coolant tank so that I can run flood coolant if I wish. Looking in the manual the drain from the base of the mill routes into the coolant tank. Seems like this is a quick way to pollute the coolant with way oil. Is it this way because it is assumed that the enclosure will also leak coolant onto the machine base? The coolant tank came with an oil skimmer. If I'm using an oil based coolant I wonder how successful it will be at removing the way oil, or if it really needs to?

Just kind of thinking out loud, suppose I'll figure it out after I get the tank cleaned up and installed. If the enclosure doesn't leak too much coolant, I'm thinking I might just plug the drain in the base and use the PIG MATS you mention.

Teryk

 

[AlfaGTA]

The design is so that the way oil is "intended" to be kept separate from the coolant...Oil off the box ways "Z" runs down the face of the boxes and drips into small catch basins cast into the
base casting (FP2NC) from there it is directed into a channel that runs to the back of the machine in a slot between the base and upper casting....Then it runs into the way oil catch basin at the rear
of the base casting.....
Level the machine so that the front is a bit high relative to the rear..so the oil will run toward the rear...

In reality, some tramp oil does get to the base and can get into the coolant tank....its not perfect. Most of the coolant will get to the chip pan and return to the tank via the lower drain hose...I don't get too
much on the base, and if you keep up with mopping up the way oil before it reaches the rear side drain, you will have little contamination....

If you don't use your machine every day, might want to consider running cutting oil......I use Master Chemical's OM 303...This is a light clear cutting oil.
Not as efficient as a water based coolant, but you don't need to monitor its PH , it won't get sour and stink and it gets along with the way oil , so no skimming or bubbling needed.

It is more difficult to clean up..but with a full enclosure the outside mess is reduced.
Cheers Ross

 

[ballen]

Hi Don,

Now you need to paint your floor and that ugly as sin garage door Seriously, a painted floor makes the environment so much nicer and would be not that expensive for such a small space. The problem would be the corrosive chemicals needed to prep the concrete so the paint would adhere properly so machines might have to be moved outside under tarps for a few days. Maybe you could move machines to one side and slather with anti rust spray and paint 1/2 floor at a time but I would worry a little about the acid needed for the floor prep effecting the electronics.

I agree that a painted floor is much nicer than raw concrete. But the normal acid used to etch concrete before painting is Muratic acid (hydrochloric acid, HCL, Saltzsauer). This has the good feature that it decomposes into water and chlorine gas, both of which evaporate, so there is nothing left behind after flushing and mopping. But even a brief exposure to the chlorine gas will HORRIBLY RUST ALL OF YOUR TOOLS. Even if you soak the tools with antirust spray they will be a mess on the inside. This is just not a Good Idea.

If you are going to etch and paint the concrete, put your tools somewhere else for the duration. Standing out in the elements would be better for them, at least the rust would appear slowly and on the outside.

Cheers,
Bruce

PS: painted concrete looks nice but is still hard on the knees and ankles and damages tools that are dropped. Much better is a floor made of T&G plywood or OSB laid on top of rigid foam insulation.

 

[AlfaGTA]

Customer of mine has his machine shop (hobby) in the basement under his garage, and the floor is rubber.....
Easy on the knees, makes the room quiet, and tools don't get damaged (as badly) when they fall on the floor.....Nicest shop floor IMO...But i think
it might be a bit pricey...
Cheers Ross

 

[Milacron]

I agree that a painted floor is much nicer than raw concrete. But the normal acid used to etch concrete before painting is Muratic acid (hydrochloric acid, HCL, Saltzsauer). This has the good feature that it decomposes into water and chlorine gas, both of which evaporate, so there is nothing left behind after flushing and mopping. But even a brief exposure to the chlorine gas will HORRIBLY RUST ALL OF YOUR TOOLS. Even if you soak the tools with antirust spray they will be a mess on the inside. This is just not a Good Idea.

If you are going to etch and paint the concrete, put your tools somewhere else for the duration. Standing out in the elements would be better for them, at least the rust would appear slowly and on the outside.



PS: painted concrete looks nice but is still hard on the knees and ankles and damages tools that are dropped. Much better is a floor made of T&G plywood or OSB laid on top of rigid foam insulation.

Good info about the etching acid...I didn't realize it was that corrosive to machine tools but suspected it might be.

OTOH, I strongly disagree about your "much better is...." statement on floor material. Never cease to be amazed at folks concerns over concrete hardness regarding knees and dropping tools. In decades of concrete use I don't recall ever damaging a tool that dropped on the floor....what the hell are you guys dropping ?? If I drop a wrench I'm more concerned about damaging the paint on the floor than I am the wrench ! Perhaps a dial indicator might survive hitting OSB better than concrete but I don't recall ever dropping one...ever !

As for knees, for short periods I'm fine with kneeing direct on the floor....better a clean painted floor than dirty not painted. For longer periods just kneel on rags or cardboard.

Plus what good it a rubber or (ugly as hell) OSB floor when it comes time to move something with a pallet jack or skates ? I do have special rubber matts at some machines but they are easily removable.

 

[rklopp]

In decades of concrete use I don't recall ever damaging a tool that dropped on the floor....what the hell are you guys dropping ?? If I drop a wrench I'm more concerned about damaging the paint on the floor than I am the wrench ! Perhaps a dial indicator might survive hitting OSB better than concrete but I don't recall ever dropping one...ever !

You must lead a charmed life! I am not so worried about dropped tools as dropped parts with lots of sunk hours. My solution to that problem is rubber mats wherever parts are handled.

 

[Milacron]

You must lead a charmed life! I am not so worried about dropped tools as dropped parts with lots of sunk hours. .

Now, that I can understand but still better to just be more careful with the parts than to have an ugly hard to clean, hard to roll things on, floor.