What is your impression about Chinese CNC machining shops?

[NAST555]

Looks pretty damn neat to me.

Why all the haas machines though? Unless haas are really pushing their brand there are there not better alternatives in the same price range? I ask this because there are a few shops here that run a lot of haas machines but I have never understood why. They did/do push their brand here pretty well but if you shop around after adding a few extras to a haas here you get an equivalent (actually better in my opinion) Korean or Taiwanese machine quite easily.

I always thought that in the U.S.A that guys used haas because they are affordable half decent machines. I am sure that they get a better pricing structure than the rest of the world being the transport factor? Other than that not one haas has really tickled my fancy when it comes to bang/buck.

 

[Leonh]

hey Goo Proto, look, a ventilator

You are funny.....

 

[barratt]

Hi Leonh,
So is this a new shop? (Only time I ever so a machine shop so clean apart from medical and showroom).
What sort of stuff do you do?

 

[machtool]

I always thought that in the U.S.A that guys used haas because they are affordable half decent machines. I am sure that they get a better pricing structure than the rest of the world being the transport factor? Other than that not one haas has really tickled my fancy when it comes to bang/buck.

You and I have about the same purchasing power. About two tenths of stuff all. China is a huge market in comparison.

Should only take $3K to send a machine from Oxnard to China. Lots of empty boats, heading that way.

Regards Phil.

 

[Leonh]

Hi Leonh,
So is this a new shop? (Only time I ever so a machine shop so clean apart from medical and showroom).
What sort of stuff do you do?

Thank you barratt,
Yes, it's a new shop, we moved in 6 month ago. We provide cnc machining and rapid prototyping services. You can take a look our website: www.3erp.com , and mail to [email protected] for more information, i will send our presentation.

 

[Nc_coder]

Sounds like you had a really bad experience with Chinese tooling shop. Most companies i know who outsourcing tooling job in China are happy with the price and quality. By the way, if the experience is that bad, why would you continue work with them for the last 25 years?

Because when America's injection molding companies outsourced molds to China to "save money" rework on those said molds in America saved many shops! It was common for people to order 100K mold to be in China to save 40K but when it came to America it couldn't even make one shot lol. Then it to 60K of rework to get it operable because of the generally horrendous workmanship i.e NOTHING was square or flat and corner cutting. Now a lot more molds are being made in the states because bean counters realized they weren't saving anything by outsourcing.This created a double edged sword in the U.S. especially in the Midwest 20-30 years of outsourcing severely dried up the talent pools and with the retiring baby boomers this Industry is in DEEP shit.

 

[DMF_TomB]

Because when America's injection molding companies outsourced molds to China to "save money" rework on those said molds in America saved many shops! It was common for people to order 100K mold to be in China to save 40K but when it came to America it couldn't even make one shot lol. Then it to 60K of rework to get it operable because of the generally horrendous workmanship i.e NOTHING was square or flat and corner cutting. Now a lot more molds are being made in the states because bean counters realized they weren't saving anything by outsourcing.This created a double edged sword in the U.S. especially in the Midwest 20-30 years of outsourcing severely dried up the talent pools and with the retiring baby boomers this Industry is in DEEP shit.

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my company gets some castings weighing tons semi finish machined in Taiwan. Technically not China but i take those castings and have to setup and stock divide in our fixtures and in general they are within .001 per 40"
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they are finished machine in USA because we have a machine designed for the tolerances .0003 per 40" and if inspection says it needs a recut it can be remachined in a few hours. although recutting is very rare, inspection lets us know if our machine is out of calibration and which way to compensate and how much. so often having the CNC machine near where final inspection is, is the determining factor where it is finished machined
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i have seen pictures of the Taiwan machine shop and it looks like any USA machine shop (maybe cleaner). my guess is it is often more a trust issue where final inspection and machining is done. my company is buying a new $2,000,000 CNC made in Japan and it just happens it will be delivered to USA factory. we sent a part and the USA programmer and USA inspection guy to Japan as they wanted to see if it could machine to the tolerances required. it did. machine will be delivered this year to USA factory

 

[Leonh]

Because when America's injection molding companies outsourced molds to China to "save money" rework on those said molds in America saved many shops! It was common for people to order 100K mold to be in China to save 40K but when it came to America it couldn't even make one shot lol. Then it to 60K of rework to get it operable because of the generally horrendous workmanship i.e NOTHING was square or flat and corner cutting. Now a lot more molds are being made in the states because bean counters realized they weren't saving anything by outsourcing.This created a double edged sword in the U.S. especially in the Midwest 20-30 years of outsourcing severely dried up the talent pools and with the retiring baby boomers this Industry is in DEEP shit.

This data is for your reference only. It shows the total value of molds(Commodity Code:848071) U.S companies have imported from China in 2016.

 

[Leonh]

Because when America's injection molding companies outsourced molds to China to "save money" rework on those said molds in America saved many shops! It was common for people to order 100K mold to be in China to save 40K but when it came to America it couldn't even make one shot lol. Then it to 60K of rework to get it operable because of the generally horrendous workmanship i.e NOTHING was square or flat and corner cutting. Now a lot more molds are being made in the states because bean counters realized they weren't saving anything by outsourcing.This created a double edged sword in the U.S. especially in the Midwest 20-30 years of outsourcing severely dried up the talent pools and with the retiring baby boomers this Industry is in DEEP shit.

The data is for your reference only, it shows total value of molds (Commodity code: 848071) U.S companies imported from China in 2016

 

[Leonh]

Looks pretty damn neat to me.

Why all the haas machines though? Unless haas are really pushing their brand there are there not better alternatives in the same price range? I ask this because there are a few shops here that run a lot of haas machines but I have never understood why. They did/do push their brand here pretty well but if you shop around after adding a few extras to a haas here you get an equivalent (actually better in my opinion) Korean or Taiwanese machine quite easily.

I always thought that in the U.S.A that guys used haas because they are affordable half decent machines. I am sure that they get a better pricing structure than the rest of the world being the transport factor? Other than that not one haas has really tickled my fancy when it comes to bang/buck.

DMG is much more expensive than HAAS here, and HAAS is suitable for our machining work now.

 

[DMF_TomB]

i have heard of castings made in Taiwan at $200 and castings made in USA at $600. and even if castings need ultrasound testing for internal defects and some discussion with foundry needed about altering their process for better quality they will do it. they still buy USA castings but about half of castings are made in Taiwan.
....my belief is lower price from Taiwan is more the money exchange rate difference from overvalued USA dollars and not so much they work cheaper although their wages might be less their cost of living is less.
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if USA printed more US dollars to lower their value then everybody on welfare and other government benefits would complain about not being able to buy as much cheap Chinese made goods. even USA manufacturers would complain as they buy cheaper Steel and parts like car parts and use those to make cars at what they says is a lower price made in USA cause they are using Chinese imported items to make the made in the USA assembled products.
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having any import tariff on Chinese made items it always controversial as some want cheap imports and others do not. it has been that way over 200 years when New England manufactures wanted tariffs and the Southern states did not want import tariffs.

 

[machtool]

Wonder what ever happened to that g-coder05 cat. He was down town cherry pie, then he went all offshore. All Shanghai Kung fu Knight. Last we heard he was terminated in China. He hasn't surfaced yet.
*Don't mind me* I'm just catching up with history.

Regards Phil.

 

[machtool]

i have heard of castings made in Taiwan at $200 and castings made in USA at $600. and even if castings need ultrasound testing for internal defects and some discussion with foundry needed about altering their process for better quality they will do it. they still buy USA castings but about half of castings are made in Taiwan.

So just for the record, your saying half of the Gleason castings are made in Taiwan?

 

[DMF_TomB]

Wonder what ever happened to that g-coder05 cat. He was down town cherry pie, then he went all offshore. All Shanghai Kung fu Knight. Last we heard he was terminated in China. He hasn't surfaced yet.
*Don't mind me* I'm just catching up with history.

Regards Phil.

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a lot of experts go to China to help setup factories. it is rarely permanent but more a assignment of 6 months to a few years. i could not stay in China as cause i could not read, write and speak fluent Chinese i was not considered as good as average Chinese worker and i would have not have accepted a pay cut to match average Chinese salary
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i was in China over a year. i went back to USA factory and 5 years later lost job. i got another job offer (in USA) in 3 weeks and made even more money. then 2nd USA job 6 years later got laid off job again and got another job offer in about 3 weeks and make even more money now. both times in only a few years i was making more money at the newer job
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loosing job not the end of the world but i will admit when looking for another job it seems to take a lot longer cause worrying about finding another job.

 

[DMF_TomB]

So just for the record, your saying half of the Gleason castings are made in Taiwan?

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some castings are made in Taiwan and some in USA. the bigger castings over 1000 lbs are mostly made in Taiwan. it changes month to month.
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my company used to have their own foundry in the USA. when environmental regulations were changed in 1990's they could not even buy the metal to make a casting for what they could buy a casting from Taiwan. there literally are very few cast iron foundries even left still in business in New York State. i do not know of any cast iron foundries in a 70 mile radius. literally the USA castings we buy from USA foundry are made like 1000 miles away in another state.
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not sure if its federal or state regulations but pollution laws do effect businesses staying in business. casting quality varies from batch to batch. normally the castings are high quality. i had a 11 ton casting once 1/2" oversize on a boss sticking out at one spot and caused machine to choke and tool spun in spindle causing damage. foundry apologized and said they had 7 step program to see it never happens again. never saw any foundry never make mistake or have some problems. sometimes it is required to ultrasound or xray castings first. depends on many things
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i am told the Taiwan foundry is a very very big company. literally a much bigger company than the one i work for. literally if we order 100 tons of castings a year to them that actually is a small customer. we try to have 2 sources for all castings or 2 foundry suppliers. its not always possible. they often change casting suppliers. it might be more to do with some foundries are so busy it might be over a year to get castings made and a different foundry can make them faster

 

[Speedie]

MY impression is that for the most part they will churn out decent parts. Most of the shops I have seen pictures of look very nice and clean. But what I don't trust are the times where real spec'd material is not used for an application and/or big time half assed methods are used and covered up only to fail. They are just riding the wave..like anybody, anywhere in the world. Be nice to see those waves back here. Soon the lead time, shipping costs and rising inflation in China will keep a big chunk of mfg here in the states. It has started to fall back over a decade ago but its scant. Very interesting to see the actual size of a worker compared to a Haas machine.

They will have to use the Bruce Lee 2" punch to close the vise and a round house kick to open it. Must be what keeps them thin.

 

[machtool]

.we try to have 2 sources for all castings or 2 foundry suppliers. its not always possible. they often change casting suppliers.

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.you forget it was only a few months ago. Wasn't that a totally different story you were telling re: casting suppliers.
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.you were complaining about casting's being 1/8" oversize

.me crash. bury cutter into casting
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. 0.0000005" on finish cut per 40"
Change Grid shift, morning, noon and night. Stop
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Excel spread sheet says, does not compute. Wonky 0.20" runout drill

. drill snaps in hole
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How you keep slandering big gear cutter Co
.
Is beyond me
.

Telex Finish.
- . .-.. . -..- / ..-. .. -. .. ... .... .-.-.-

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

They will have to use the Bruce Lee 2" punch to close the vise and a round house kick to open it. Must be what keeps them thin.

No. Dog is relatively lean, I'm told.

 

[DMF_TomB]

.
.you forget it was only a few months ago. Wasn't that a totally different story you were telling re: casting suppliers.
.
.you were complaining about casting's being 1/8" oversize

.me crash. bury cutter into casting
.

. 0.0000005" on finish cut per 40"
Change Grid shift, morning, noon and night. Stop
.
Excel spread sheet says, does not compute. Wonky 0.20" runout drill

. drill snaps in hole
.
How you keep slandering big gear cutter Co
.
Is beyond me
.

Telex Finish.
- . .-.. . -..- / ..-. .. -. .. ... .... .-.-.-

.
.
i already mentioned one 1/2" oversized 11 ton casting i worked on. smaller castings 1 to 2 meters its normal can be up to 0.2" oversize. thats normal casting tolerance for that size castings. breaking drill bits and runout of tools happens, its part of the job.
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actually grid shift calibration checks and excel checklists and work logs, work instructions or procedures is how i deal with maintaining tolerances and lowering sudden tool failures. again thats normal part of the job.
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its how you deal with maintaining quality that says a lot. not everything in machining is automatic including quality it requires work and constant checking of things

 

[ewlsey]

Fun fact, an applications engineer at Kurt told me that half the US iron foundries did not survive the great recession. There's been very little recovery.