What percentage of machinists/ moldmakers at your company under the age of 40?

[SND]

Just today I was driving in the industrial park and saw some guys putting concrete forms for new sidewalks, all in their late 50's and 60's easy, and I see that a lot.
Part of it is because yes perhaps few guys want to get in, and part of it is its also usually pretty hard to get in with the whole seniority and " who you know " crap.

This trade, like most others, are getting exactly what they asked for.

Many of those who scream about skills shortage, are usually the ones who didn't think about having the older guy train the new one, until he died or quit. "oh shit a spot just opened up ".

Mind you its not all like that, some shops do great and will survive just fine.
I'm 29, started making chips at 14.

 

[Lyk31337]

It depends, about 10 under forty here, but those are just card holders. As far as actually knowing what they're doing on most any machine, maybe 2 under 40, and about 5 over 40. It's hard to really say, we have plenty of great mill guys that have never touched a lathe and vice versa. Then some that have only done 5+ axis.

 

[juergenwt]

We have gone thru this discussion many times. All the pro-and contra of apprenticeship programs under government supervision with government tax support and depending on a persons political vie point the opinions range from full support to leave it alone.
One thing is for sure, as long as there are no nation wide coordinated programs and tests we don't even know what constitutes a machinist, mold maker, tool and die maker etc. etc.. For everyone that knows his stuff and is really good in his field there many who think they are the cream of the crop when in all reality they don't even come close. There is an abundance of highly qualified (or so the think) people posting on this forum and others. Who really knows? As far as working with others and finding yourselves superior - just remember that among the blind the one eyed is a king.

So what to do? As long as there exists an attitude among many owners of small small to middle class shops for making it to sixty-five than sell and live happily ever after in Florida we will most likely see a further decline in the number of people calling for a government supported training program. Big industry will continue to dumb down manufacturing to the lowest denominator and rely on skilled labor from overseas to supply them with ever more sophisticated machinery to do the job. Why promote training? After all we are making parts - and we assemble.
Remember when in the 70's a new wave of CEO's entered the market. Fresh out of Universities and Business schools and the very first thing to go was TRAINING PROGRAMS. Trade schools closed and the bottom line of many companies improved - for a short time. Than they sold out!

 

[toolmaker76]

I am 55, semi-retired. I work for someone else part time, and do my own stuff part time. Still get calls from head hunters every so often. Last one was looking for an actual tool and die maker, and told me, "You guys are like dinosaurs- hard to find!"

Ain't that the truth!

 

[BridgeportinD2]

We are at 33%. The boss man (tool and die maker) is 47, the part-timer (retired die cast diemaker and toolmaker) is 68, and I'm 28 (manual machinist and occasional diesetter and press operator). About twenty year intervals between us.

 

[smalltime]

Some people think tool and die makers make screw drivers and ink. No simple solution, we need a major reformation. but it'll never happen...wanna know why? we all shop at mthafkn walmart.

Hey Allout,
Around here you can spell out MOTHERFUCKIN'

Just sayin'

Don't let these old fucks talk you out of anything. If you like to build/make shit......Do it!

The day goes by much quicker.

 

[allloutmx]

Hey Allout,
Around here you can spell out MOTHERFUCKIN'

Just sayin'

Don't let these old fucks talk you out of anything. If you like to build/make shit......Do it!

The day goes by much quicker.

I feel more polite when you have to decode my profanity ...
and i dont wanna piss of that dude milacron. i heard he can be a real d!ck...

 

[smalltime]

I feel more polite when you have to decode my profanity ...
and i dont wanna piss of that dude milacron. i heard he can be a real d!ck...

Na!
He's really just a lovable fuzzball.

 

[andywire]

0%. I'm the youngest. This area doesn't have much mold making anymore. That seems to have migrated down south or out of the country. Anywhere where you can pay them dirt really. I was doing a lot of cool stuff for awhile. Then the work started getting slow again. We scored a very good paying job that will last for months. Unfortunately for me, that means loading a machine, and maybe squaring up some stock in between the cycles. Maybe some grinding or something, but without new working coming in, my chances of learning aren't great.

Problem with this trade is you can't go to college and learn it. Trades schools can teach the basics, but this job is learned by doing. Apprentices are an expensive investment, and you all know the story with the shop rates. Training has been slashed right out of the budget. The only way to learn is to find the right shop that is stable enough to make such an investment. With work being automated, shipped out of the country, etc, those types of shops are in short supply. And how money shops even make dies and molds start to finish anymore? How much of that crap arrives in the states in less then working order, ready to be made whole?

As for the payscale... Wages are a function of supply and demand. Unfortunately, the economy is telling us that we don't need mold makers and machinists anymore (not here anyways). Seems to be what the suits and our government has been saying too. Go to college, get a degree and hope for the best because this ship is sinking. Want to make molds? Move to China and work for $2/hr. Sad reality it is. And it really gets old with these stupid ass hats whining about their inability to find skilled workers. Gee, ya think?! There are easier ways to earn more money. Path of least resistance will always be traversed by the masses.

I don't know what the answer is. There is no lobby group for us in Washington. Obama doesn't know of our plight, and even if he did, he's too busy hanging out with Jay Z and Tiger Woods. Joe Biden doesn't even know what planet he's living on. Government is usually the problem, not the solution. These corporations want to eliminate as many jobs as they can. They aren't in the business of investing in a skilled workforce. Their motto is "invest in yourself". Damnit, I've got 5K worth of tools, I've been through 3 different shops, moved for better prospects, and it's the same shit all over. If you don't know it by now, your SOL. 4 years without a vacation doesn't do much to improve my outlook either. This trade chews em up as fast as they come.

Want to know what most of the machinists I know worth a damn are doing these days??? Something else. Somebody better do something because this trade is soon to be relegated to the history books in this country. Awesome trade, love the work and hope I have a long, meaningful career. Heck, I make more than most of my college educated friends. All things considered though, the future's lookin pretty bleak though.

 

[Fear Factory]

One and that one is me started at 15 but I wouldn't call myself a machinist, just yet infact I don't think it is possible to actually be a True qualified machinist, if ya know what I mean.
as for the "NEW" Generation of machinist Just finishing trade school last year we had say 13 in a class vs say 60 odd welders or chippies and half of the class had room temperature IQ's so about 6 would make it... a bit fucked eh?

 

[DEKMachineINC]

We have gone thru this discussion many times. All the pro-and contra of apprenticeship programs under government supervision with government tax support and depending on a persons political vie point the opinions range from full support to leave it alone.
One thing is for sure, as long as there are no nation wide coordinated programs and tests we don't even know what constitutes a machinist, mold maker, tool and die maker etc. etc.. For everyone that knows his stuff and is really good in his field there many who think they are the cream of the crop when in all reality they don't even come close. There is an abundance of highly qualified (or so the think) people posting on this forum and others. Who really knows? As far as working with others and finding yourselves superior - just remember that among the blind the one eyed is a king.

So what to do? As long as there exists an attitude among many owners of small small to middle class shops for making it to sixty-five than sell and live happily ever after in Florida we will most likely see a further decline in the number of people calling for a government supported training program. Big industry will continue to dumb down manufacturing to the lowest denominator and rely on skilled labor from overseas to supply them with ever more sophisticated machinery to do the job. Why promote training? After all we are making parts - and we assemble.
Remember when in the 70's a new wave of CEO's entered the market. Fresh out of Universities and Business schools and the very first thing to go was TRAINING PROGRAMS. Trade schools closed and the bottom line of many companies improved - for a short time. Than they sold out!

So true about the tool and die makers thinking they are so damned on top of machining these days when technology has passed a lot of people by. Just be ause you have a cert for tool and die making from 1969. I know a guy that started his own business and still makes repeat parts day in day out for the last ten years without an automatic tool changer.

 

[allloutmx]

Na!
He's really just a lovable fuzzball.

Your probably right

 

[allloutmx]

0%. I'm the youngest. This area doesn't have much mold making anymore. That seems to have migrated down south or out of the country. Anywhere where you can pay them dirt really. I was doing a lot of cool stuff for awhile. Then the work started getting slow again. We scored a very good paying job that will last for months. Unfortunately for me, that means loading a machine, and maybe squaring up some stock in between the cycles. Maybe some grinding or something, but without new working coming in, my chances of learning aren't great.

Problem with this trade is you can't go to college and learn it. Trades schools can teach the basics, but this job is learned by doing. Apprentices are an expensive investment, and you all know the story with the shop rates. Training has been slashed right out of the budget. The only way to learn is to find the right shop that is stable enough to make such an investment. With work being automated, shipped out of the country, etc, those types of shops are in short supply. And how money shops even make dies and molds start to finish anymore? How much of that crap arrives in the states in less then working order, ready to be made whole?

As for the payscale... Wages are a function of supply and demand. Unfortunately, the economy is telling us that we don't need mold makers and machinists anymore (not here anyways). Seems to be what the suits and our government has been saying too. Go to college, get a degree and hope for the best because this ship is sinking. Want to make molds? Move to China and work for $2/hr. Sad reality it is. And it really gets old with these stupid ass hats whining about their inability to find skilled workers. Gee, ya think?! There are easier ways to earn more money. Path of least resistance will always be traversed by the masses.

I don't know what the answer is. There is no lobby group for us in Washington. Obama doesn't know of our plight, and even if he did, he's too busy hanging out with Jay Z and Tiger Woods. Joe Biden doesn't even know what planet he's living on. Government is usually the problem, not the solution. These corporations want to eliminate as many jobs as they can. They aren't in the business of investing in a skilled workforce. Their motto is "invest in yourself". Damnit, I've got 5K worth of tools, I've been through 3 different shops, moved for better prospects, and it's the same shit all over. If you don't know it by now, your SOL. 4 years without a vacation doesn't do much to improve my outlook either. This trade chews em up as fast as they come.

Want to know what most of the machinists I know worth a damn are doing these days??? Something else. Somebody better do something because this trade is soon to be relegated to the history books in this country. Awesome trade, love the work and hope I have a long, meaningful career. Heck, I make more than most of my college educated friends. All things considered though, the future's lookin pretty bleak though.

I think if we pool together a couple of the brighter individuals from this forum and start a corporation....we would have some fun. I just hope i get an invite!

 

[aerodark]

Crew of six, two younger by a couple of years than my stately 51 years. One semi retired fellow of 74.

 

[ewlsey]

What the hell is a mold maker?

Maybe I'm jaded by working in larger automotive shops, but there is not much left for "machinists". You have manufacturing engineers, programmers, and people who push a button. Some shops have setup people if they change jobs often.

 

[DMF_TomB]

simple stuff

I would think to be considered a machinist you should at least be able to square up blocks or do a simple threading operation on the lathe. Something more than load and push button. I would call them operators.

.
square up blocks ? takes about 1 minute to program mill 4 sides, top, flip part mill bottom side that is now up. on a cnc normally squaring up is measured in how many seconds it will take at 20-50 ipm feeds with 5" dia facemills
.
same with threading takes about one minute to program after cnc threads 10-50x faster than a human can possibly do, then check pitch diameter and adjust offset a few 0.001" if needed
.
actually most button pushers if they mess up a part can go to scrap bin program the new size part to rough size in about a minute and basically remake the scrapped part with what ever size they found in the scrap bin. programming fast in minutes is how you survive other wise your scrap rate will come back to you during pay raise time.

 

[allloutmx]

I was thinking more about this last night whilst my head lay against my pillow...at 18yrs, what does a young man want more than anything? thats right..Vitamin P...so why would said young man want to choose this career right out of the gate, making chump change, going to a shop where there is one guy your age and then the rest of the dudes are your dads age, and they do nothing but tell you how stupid you are, and there is One piece of vitamin P and shes kinda big...as opposed to...charging a college loan to your account, and swimming in a sea of vitamin P. Im tellin ya...you gotta find a way to make it more appealing. Or demagnatize the young mans P magnet. food for though at best..and ramblings

 

[Whatley]

I was thinking more about this last night whilst my head lay against my pillow...at 18yrs, what does a young man want more than anything? thats right..Vitamin P...so why would said young man want to choose this career right out of the gate, making chump change, going to a shop where there is one guy your age and then the rest of the dudes are your dads age, and they do nothing but tell you how stupid you are, and there is One piece of vitamin P and shes kinda big...as opposed to...charging a college loan to your account, and swimming in a sea of vitamin P. Im tellin ya...you gotta find a way to make it more appealing. Or demagnatize the young mans P magnet. food for though at best..and ramblings

Damn Peter Pan generation never wanting to grow up. College is like a gigantic playground, of the people I know in college (and being college age I know a lot) 95% of them see class as a neccesary evil to facilitate their efforts at continously partying. They do what they can to stay in the C range, take the lightest courseload from the easiest professors who offer easy classes because they just want to research and not babysit 20 year old's who act like horny toddlers all the time. 5% do work hard though and work at making the degree more than paper. And I feel like only those 5% should actually be there.

I know we are kinda getting off topic on this, but I also don't understand why women give these guys the time of day. It seemed to me that women used to go for those that proved themselves, that had a good job, a nice car, someone who was smart and hard working. I dunno, Maybe I read too many books.

It's very true though, what Allloutmx says, 4-5 years of almost no commitment, light duty, constant vacations including summer, room and board provided for, all you need is beer money, and more woman than you could have imagined who are all in this "it's college, let's make mistakes" attitude. Compare that to our 12 hour days 5-6 days a week, old timers giving you shit, High stress, hands bleeding, coolant in your eyes, and chips in your hair. I may not agree but I see why the choice is being made.

I couldn't sacrifice everything I had built into myself as a man just to pretend like I didn't value character for 4 years.

 

[hanermo]

Over here in Spain..
In about 200 shops I saw last year, maybe 3-5% under 40.
Maybe 2% under 30.

BUT .. Quality was 95-99% as in the best machinists / makers there are.
Similar to the US .. when 90% of shops closed, the only ones left are the kick ass guys.

Some very profitable shops and owners, are doing work for MercedesBenz, Porsche, and so on.
They just went to germany, sold their know how, and the german guy "selling" to benz for example subs it to Spain.
I think it is not correct to name the shop, who almost owns the entire street, having bought out at least 6-8 shops next to them..

The quality of the work done in Spain is just as good as the germans/swiss. Otherwise you dont get the job.
OTOH
My guys made about min 4k /month in total compensation/avg. Some 5-7k.
Free cars, food, training, credit cards etc etc.
And everyone worked their asses off. That was the deal.

Machinists in shops make about 2.5 -4 k€ here in Spain.
Thats 3x normal wage.
These are the best, top, guys, the only ones in the biz.
Just like in the US, the squeeze dropped off a lot of businesses. The ones left are all really, really good.

One of my nicest, coolest, meetings last yr was with a shop owner manager 23.
23 years, gorgeous Spanish girl, bossing 5 guys with about 8+ machines.
She could change the filters and pumps on any machine, and did not need any tech asistacne.
And a nice person, who asked for technical help, and had helped us for 10 years+.
I was very happy to do so.
She was 3rd generation, and half the staff were her (very big, powerful, strong) brothers.

My sales and technical staff were around 30-35 in general.
But it got the pick of the litter, in a field with 19.000 shops.

Everyone of mine was excellent. Fair enough. High pay. High expectations.

In schools over here the skill level is very high. (This was a BIG surprise for me).
Of people graduating in cnc etc stuff, 95% have a job lined up, at 50-100% above avg wage.
In a country with 50% youth unemployment.

 

[ewlsey]

You guys have no idea what college is...

It's not like some National Lampoon movie. Not everyone's Mommy and Daddy are handing them a 5 year party free of charge.

I did my engineering degree in 4 years. The work load was incredible. 6-8 hours of lecture each day, a few hours of lab work, then you can go home and relax with stacks of homework, exam prep, projects, group work, papers, and constant stress. At least when you have a job, you can go hope and stop working.

Now add to that the crippling debt you are accruing and the fact that you have no money because you either don't have time to work, or can't get a decent job because your schedule is all fucked up, and changes every 4 months.

I worked my ass off for those years. You guys have no clue.