What's the deal with dmg mori

[cameraman]

We have a bunch of high end machines at work. One is a DMG Mori brand new fancy pants thing. Machine is awesome. The interaction with DMG Mori is the worst of any brand. Takes forever to give you very little technical support. Basically no value. Some machines you hope the tradeoff of crappy support of a great machine pans out. For a 40x20 VMC you don't need to make that choice.

You guys are a really high end out fit... You installed a NTX2000 (thingy) on a 4th floor, (as far as I can tell from that wonderfully appalling "new machine" thread? :-) )Was the documentation and various resources that "come" with the machine were they adequate, or was there some basic stuff that would be difficult for anyone to bridge the gap on ? So what you are saying is their phone support/on line support is a bit of a myth? [You guys are very experienced and technically very savy].

 

[Jodgey]

I would also look at the Hardinge Conquest V1000 for $80k before buying the Haas. There is an interesting thread on here about this machine. There is also a rep in your area. I'll attach a link below for the specs on this machine.

Hardinge Conquest V1000

edit: GMTA Steve, you beat me, lol.

They came by today. 80K for the 1000V seems pretty sweet. Ill check out that thread and see what the others think about the machine.

Thanks for all lthe insight guys, you all have given me a lot of confidence in what would otherwise be a really awkward conversation for me to have.

 

[Jrill]

Maybe you are overlooking some things? Going from a knee mill to a ~$100k vmc is a big step. Before you trade in the Mustang GT for a Ferrari F12 maybe you should upgrade HSMworks to NX cam or something along those lines, or go for a slightly cheaper machine but invest the difference in $ in quick change tooling or whatever fixturing would help you out, which seems (to me) like a better investment for rapid prototype/one-off production than a super advanced machine.

 

[Jodgey]

Maybe you are overlooking some things? Going from a knee mill to a ~$100k vmc is a big step. Before you trade in the Mustang GT for a Ferrari F12 maybe you should upgrade HSMworks to NX cam or something along those lines, or go for a slightly cheaper machine but invest the difference in $ in quick change tooling or whatever fixturing would help you out, which seems (to me) like a better investment for rapid prototype/one-off production than a super advanced machine.

A really good point. I was starting out in the 60K range, and somehow jumped up. Maybe I should revisit my criteria.

 

[gkoenig]

Maybe you are overlooking some things? Going from a knee mill to a ~$100k vmc is a big step. Before you trade in the Mustang GT for a Ferrari F12 maybe you should upgrade HSMworks to NX cam or something along those lines, or go for a slightly cheaper machine but invest the difference in $ in quick change tooling or whatever fixturing would help you out, which seems (to me) like a better investment for rapid prototype/one-off production than a super advanced machine.

I think you're off base by a whole lot, the the best proof of that is that you would even consider telling someone shopping for a basic, 3 axis VMC that they should move to NX as their CAM system.

(And FYI: I went from nothing to a Robodrill just a few months ago and I'm already making kick-ass stuff with the thing. I'm not that intelligent.)

 

[cameraman]

I think you're off base by a whole lot, the the best proof of that is that you would even consider telling someone shopping for a basic, 3 axis VMC that they should move to NX as their CAM system.

(And FYI: I went from nothing to a Robodrill just a few months ago and I'm already making kick-ass stuff with the thing. I'm not that intelligent.)

This made me laugh in a good way... I looked at NX cam / siemens PLM thing about 7 years ago reasoned that that system is a good fit if you are designing an entire f*cking space ship or a line of combine harvesters with half a million parts a piece... Back then I really liked solid edge much more than solid works BUT SolidCAM really tipped me towards liking solidworks. Maybe NX has changed a lot since then ?

@gKoenig really awesome that you are "Rocking it" with your robodrill

Sounds like OP has a good enough understanding of 3 axis applications for his type of work.

@Jodgey... And probably not a lot of 5 or six sided/ six face work. But you mention things like Maya files and potentially more unusual or complex data types or sources for your type of work; so I would say maybe check out a Hurco VM 20 or VM 30. The control is pretty straight forward and actually "nice", but can handle large data sets if need be, and yet you can do simpler parts 2 1/2d parts at the control. Doesn't sound like that you have to put a 5 axis unit that weighs 500lbs plus+ or anything else heavy on the table, nor are you looking to hog out tons of material every week or have really tight tolerances day in day out in challenging materials where parts really have to fly out the door... In other words the lighter weight VM models might be really Ok rather than having to go to heavier machines like VMX or Hardinge V1000 etc... I'm not a Hurco "Fanboy" but understand their useful place for all kinds of things.

I don't know how well Hurco is supported in your region etc. but for some reason N.A.S.A seems keen on Hurcos so I imagine they must have some sort of presence in southern Florida maybe ?

 

[Cycle1000]

A really good point. I was starting out in the 60K range, and somehow jumped up. Maybe I should revisit my criteria.

That has absolutely never happened to me while machine shopping...
Gary

 

[james siffel]

I totally agree that they should have considered a different moniker other than "Eco", Okuma has done the same thing. Of course both of these makers were never known for smooth translations, anyone who has stared at their manuals in bewilderment would agree. Problem is, what other term would suggest energy saving with making it sound girly?

 

[gkoenig]

This made me laugh in a good way... I looked at NX cam / siemens PLM thing about 7 years ago reasoned that that system is a good fit if you are designing an entire f*cking space ship or a line of combine harvesters with half a million parts a piece... Back then I really liked solid edge much more than solid works BUT SolidCAM really tipped me towards liking solidworks. Maybe NX has changed a lot since then ?

I can't say how things were 7 years ago.

What I can say is "horses for courses." From what I have seen (and others I know have bolstered this opinion), NX is the definitive tool for users who need absolute, dominatrix control over every aspect of the toolpath, or those who are programming 5+ axis machines. For bog standard 3 axis toolpath, there is almost no reason to look at NX.

 

[G00 Proto]

I would love to have a Mori, Mazak or Kitamura. They all absolutely chew through metal and have remarkable speed and accuracy... but at the end of the day, I mostly make proto parts. One to ten units of generally difficult parts. For my applications, the Haas machining centers are a good fit. The interface is very user friendly and quick to setup. The speed is acceptable, and the finish and tolerance are generally spot on if I do my job. Because most of my time is spent designing, programming and setting up; run time is secondary to the above advantages. Additionally, the Haas repair people are just an hour away if I need something. Some of my friends are more production oriented and have good luck with the Japanese machines, but for me I am very happy with my Haas machines (and they're paid for).

If I had you budget and machining requirements, I would take a long hard look at the TM2P ($50k) and the Mini-Mill ($30k) and then spend the rest on tooling. That is the combo I have been running for a while, and there are very few jobs I am not willing to tackle. I have never had to call for repairs and have only swapped out a couple of gummed up limit switches.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[G8KeaPoR]

60k isn't going to get you far. The machine itself is only part of your cost. Tool holders, tools, rigging expenses, coolants, all the needed maintenance items etc all add up and very quickly.

 

[david n]

They came by today. 80K for the 1000V seems pretty sweet. Ill check out that thread and see what the others think about the machine.

Thanks for all lthe insight guys, you all have given me a lot of confidence in what would otherwise be a really awkward conversation for me to have.

The Hardinge would be my first choice......lotsa iron for the price.

 

[allloutmx]

From the other side of the river.... here in Western NY we deal with Boldt Machinery,Inc. for all of our Mori/DMG service and purchases. Boldt has been fantastic to us and we are still big Mori/DMG fans. I don't know enough to say exactly why, Mori hasn't started selling direct here. The only thing I heard from anyone Id consider reputable, was that the owner of Bolt and the people at Mori Seiki have had a long history and Boldt would continue to handle their product line going forward.

And Moris don't go down anyway so who cares about service

All kidding aside, there are plenty of private machine service companies in our area that aren't shy to service our various machine tool brands. Point being, there is always that option

 

[Jrill]

If I had you budget and machining requirements, I would take a long hard look at the TM2P ($50k) and the Mini-Mill ($30k) and then spend the rest on tooling. That is the combo I have been running for a while, and there are very few jobs I am not willing to tackle.

I was thinking about this last night and, my .02, two machines might be better than one larger machine when it comes to 3axis lightweight aluminum prototype pieces, as long as one is moderately capable (I don't consider the TM2 moderately capable... I was thinking like a VF or something along those lines). The TM2 has a 40" X axis travel I think, or the one we are looking at does.

 

[gkoenig]

I was thinking about this last night and, my .02, two machines might be better than one larger machine when it comes to 3axis lightweight aluminum prototype pieces, as long as one is moderately capable (I don't consider the TM2 moderately capable... I was thinking like a VF or something along those lines). The TM2 has a 40" X axis travel I think, or the one we are looking at does.

I might think that if prototyping is the game, a solid investment would be a 4th axis, just to try and eliminate as much setup bullshit as possible.

There is a reason all the prototype shops that support really kick ass design teams are 5 axis...

 

[Jrill]

I can't say how things were 7 years ago.

What I can say is "horses for courses." From what I have seen (and others I know have bolstered this opinion), NX is the definitive tool for users who need absolute, dominatrix control over every aspect of the toolpath, or those who are programming 5+ axis machines. For bog standard 3 axis toolpath, there is almost no reason to look at NX.

Honest question - what do you think is a good CAM system for 3axis? I use HSMworks and although it's amazing for being free I would love to move on to something less buggy, and NX cam seemed reliable which is why it was the first thing I thought of, but I've never used it or any of the other systems.

 

[m98custom1212]

Honest question - what do you think is a good CAM system for 3axis? I use HSMworks and although it's amazing for being free I would love to move on to something less buggy, and NX cam seemed reliable which is why it was the first thing I thought of, but I've never used it or any of the other systems.

I like Fusion 360.. it's buggy but the toolpaths are pretty reliable.

NX
Mastercam is meh
TopSolid is Awesome
WorkNC heard and seen good things didn't use it enough though
Gibbscam pretty popular haven't used it for number of years though
Bobcad is actually pretty decent now

 

[cameraman]

I was thinking about this last night and, my .02, two machines might be better than one larger machine when it comes to 3axis lightweight aluminum prototype pieces, as long as one is moderately capable (I don't consider the TM2 moderately capable... I was thinking like a VF or something along those lines). The TM2 has a 40" X axis travel I think, or the one we are looking at does.

@G00 Proto that probably could be a sweet/neat arrangement but I feel like saying "Dude" are you sure you don't work for Hardinge... :-) because $30K + $50K = $80K and $80K can get you a Hardinge V1000?

@Jrill yeah I agree ... the TM2 has a spindle of 7.5 Haaspower (that's max rating) and I hear that the TM2 should come supplied with a raincoat :-) ... I think the TM2 definitely has its place, and its nice I think that Haas still builds such machines.

For OP the appeal of the eco-line 1100v is that it appears non threating/friendly is not perhaps a gigantic scary beast that will rip you limb from limb, and the control has good graphics and appears user friendly and appears very capable as long as its treated nice/ used very lightly/carefully...

The Hardinge V1000 is a true professional production machine in every way... Is a real beast but is perhaps overkill and not quite as "friendly" perhaps ... Mits control not bad but not wonderful.

If I was doing more deign and "Arty"/fun/cool fabrications then I would buy a Hurco VM machine without hesitation, as larger files for complex and difficult "topographies" can be handled pretty well... That's not so much fun for drip fed/slow Fanuc with very limited program space etc. [I know there are work abounds for that, but Hurco have that figured out pretty well I think]. If I was doing more critical hard engineering then the Hardinge. The Haas control is nice, and clean and well designed but very different from the Hurco idea. Given the potential budget and application I don't see why he/OP would necessarily want to go out of his way to make his life more difficult or complex, given that he probably does a lot of other types of fabrication/ building/ set dressing also? Maybe I'm guessing there?

 

[G00 Proto]

Don't even consider the TM2, just the TM2P. I had a TM2 and it sucked in every way imaginable. The TM2P is still moderately slow, but it's a workhorse.

As far a software, I am partial to mastercam, but that's mostly because after 20 years I'm pretty used to it. If you already are competent and comfortable in Solidworks, the full seat of HSMworks is a pretty good value.


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[jid2]

Hsmworks is still my favorite 3 axis software, tried almost everything. NX is OK. It's not as amazing as you would think. Support from Seimens is pretty horrible. Like amazingly bad and kinda unfuriating with cost as a factor.