Andy FitzGibbon
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2005
- Location
- Elkins WV
No, the 5V (Van Norman "C") stuff that Tools4Cheap sells won't be of any help. Your mill is definitely Van Norman No. 2 taper.
Andy
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Van norman quil.Milling machine
- Thread starter Phatphil
- Start date
- Replies 63
- Views 17,278
No, the 5V (Van Norman "C") stuff that Tools4Cheap sells won't be of any help. Your mill is definitely Van Norman No. 2 taper.
Andy
reggie_obe
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2004
- Location
- Reddington, N.J., U.S.A.
50V collets show up on Ebay somewhat regularly (US Fleabay at least). Shipping might be a deal breaker. I have a bunch of NOS Welson 50V endmill holders that are surplus to my needs. But they are fractional and not metric sizes.
Hi Reggie .Thanks for offer.I did most off my engineeing in South Africa and all my slot and endmills are metric.I have done work in the USA a few time for electric motor manufactures and could not believe how much easier it is to get enginering parts.In Uk it`s a nightmare.Regards phil
Quill head unit
I don`t know what this should be called.Transfer head.I am going to try strip it this weekend.I will take pic`s.If bearing look and feel good just going to replace seals and repack grease.I`m having a bit off a problem sourcing quill bearings.A bearing company said they could check bearings for me and may be allright just being repacked.The machine looked pretty bashed about,but i`m sure has not done much work.Where the seals are there are no marks on shafts.regards phil
I don`t know what this should be called.Transfer head.I am going to try strip it this weekend.I will take pic`s.If bearing look and feel good just going to replace seals and repack grease.I`m having a bit off a problem sourcing quill bearings.A bearing company said they could check bearings for me and may be allright just being repacked.The machine looked pretty bashed about,but i`m sure has not done much work.Where the seals are there are no marks on shafts.regards phil
Bevel Gear
I have no idear how bevel gear and shaft come apart.Lucky I stripped unit as bearing nut was loose,locking washer tab was not used to lock nut.I found another arbour and stamped VN no2.See Pic
Pictures by carphil13 - Photobucket
Rgards phil
I have no idear how bevel gear and shaft come apart.Lucky I stripped unit as bearing nut was loose,locking washer tab was not used to lock nut.I found another arbour and stamped VN no2.See Pic
Pictures by carphil13 - Photobucket
Rgards phil
Cal Haines
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Location
- Tucson, AZ
taper adapter, ER32 toolholders, DRO
The dimensions that you list sound like the outside of a tool with a Van Norman No. 2 shank. I was asking about the inner taper of the adapter. Does it have a continuous internal taper? If so, what are the dimensions?
CTC has ER32 collet holders for about 14 Euros. They are available with 20, 25 and 32mm straight shanks as well as R8, 40 taper and Morse Taper 2, 3 & 4 shanks. I noticed the blue boxes with the yellow stripes with your ER collets; those look just like the boxes that my CTC ER collets came in.
The connections to DRO scales are usually fairly simple. There should be shield, common, +5V supply, two signal lines and an index line. It should be possible for someone with an electronics background to figure out the pinout of the connector. Can you post a photo of the connector? I take it that you have a readout/display and scales? What's not working?
Cal
The dimensions that you list sound like the outside of a tool with a Van Norman No. 2 shank. I was asking about the inner taper of the adapter. Does it have a continuous internal taper? If so, what are the dimensions?
CTC has ER32 collet holders for about 14 Euros. They are available with 20, 25 and 32mm straight shanks as well as R8, 40 taper and Morse Taper 2, 3 & 4 shanks. I noticed the blue boxes with the yellow stripes with your ER collets; those look just like the boxes that my CTC ER collets came in.
The connections to DRO scales are usually fairly simple. There should be shield, common, +5V supply, two signal lines and an index line. It should be possible for someone with an electronics background to figure out the pinout of the connector. Can you post a photo of the connector? I take it that you have a readout/display and scales? What's not working?
Cal
Cal Haines
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Location
- Tucson, AZ
Van Norman 1-V head/quill lower casting
Bevel gear:
It took me a while to get myself oriented. Let me see if I have this right: In the above photo we're looking down at the top of the lower casting (the one that sticks into the big hole in the front of the ram and tilts left and right). The machined surface, under your label, is what the casting rotates about when it tilts left/right. The pulley mounts on the horizontal shaft that is out of frame to the left; the right end of the shaft has the bevel/pinion gear in question, visible on the left side of the vertical hole. There is a larger vertical hole, out of frame to the right, where the quill travels up and down. The hole and bushing visible in the bottom of the vertical hole allows the splined vertical drive shaft to pass through the casting as the quill is lowered.
This assembly
goes into the vertical hole in the above photo, with the bevel gear down and drives the splined vertical drive shaft. Is that correct?
Can you get a mirror into the vertical hole and see what the end of the shaft at the bevel gear looks like? I would guess that there is a nut of some sort on the end of the shaft that holds the bevel gear in place. I would think that the bevel gear and front bearing (right as seen in the first photo = front of machine) come out via the vertical hole and that the shaft and rear (pulley end) bearing come out the back.
Another possibility is that the bevel gear is machined on to the end of the shaft. The grub screw might hold a sleeve in place that has both bearings in it. If that's the case, you might need to remove the grub screw and pull the whole thing (sleeve, bearings, shaft and all) out the back of the casting. If you loosen up the nut on the pulley end, can you push the shaft to the front at all? Let me know what you figure out.
Here's a view of the bottom of the lower casting showing the horizontal shaft and mechanism that drives the quill up and down:
I assume that the shaft moves to the right, as seen in the photo, so that the clutch gear on the left end engages a clutch in the end of the worm wheel on the left side of the casting? Why are the splines on the left side of the horizontal shaft so long? Is the gear that engages the quill separate from the splined shaft?
Cal
Bevel gear:
It took me a while to get myself oriented. Let me see if I have this right: In the above photo we're looking down at the top of the lower casting (the one that sticks into the big hole in the front of the ram and tilts left and right). The machined surface, under your label, is what the casting rotates about when it tilts left/right. The pulley mounts on the horizontal shaft that is out of frame to the left; the right end of the shaft has the bevel/pinion gear in question, visible on the left side of the vertical hole. There is a larger vertical hole, out of frame to the right, where the quill travels up and down. The hole and bushing visible in the bottom of the vertical hole allows the splined vertical drive shaft to pass through the casting as the quill is lowered.
This assembly
goes into the vertical hole in the above photo, with the bevel gear down and drives the splined vertical drive shaft. Is that correct?
Can you get a mirror into the vertical hole and see what the end of the shaft at the bevel gear looks like? I would guess that there is a nut of some sort on the end of the shaft that holds the bevel gear in place. I would think that the bevel gear and front bearing (right as seen in the first photo = front of machine) come out via the vertical hole and that the shaft and rear (pulley end) bearing come out the back.
Another possibility is that the bevel gear is machined on to the end of the shaft. The grub screw might hold a sleeve in place that has both bearings in it. If that's the case, you might need to remove the grub screw and pull the whole thing (sleeve, bearings, shaft and all) out the back of the casting. If you loosen up the nut on the pulley end, can you push the shaft to the front at all? Let me know what you figure out.
Here's a view of the bottom of the lower casting showing the horizontal shaft and mechanism that drives the quill up and down:
I assume that the shaft moves to the right, as seen in the photo, so that the clutch gear on the left end engages a clutch in the end of the worm wheel on the left side of the casting? Why are the splines on the left side of the horizontal shaft so long? Is the gear that engages the quill separate from the splined shaft?
Cal
Splines.
Hi Cal.The splines take all the torque on the large bevel gear.I will take some pic`s with bevel gear on shaft.There was only a piece of felt under the grub screw.Did seem weird.The small bevel gear in casting seems to have thrust plate or thust bearing behind bevel gear and set by nut and and tag washer on opposite end off shaft.The shaft does move appox 3mm once nut is loosened so when I get small bevel gear off the unit will slide out. I want to get gear out as it has a few burrs.The large bevel gear unit has shims under the flange to set correct clearence between gears.I have little dental mirrow and will have a good look.With the collet, the largest taper is a MT 2. I could possible bore it out once I get under case hardening and then have it - finish ground to fit parrell shank for Er 32.The problem I will loose a bit of hight.The correct split collets would be better but all my cutters are metric.Cal if I mispell or use the wrong Terminology please bare with me as I do have dyslexia.You are being a great help and I am very greatful for your time.Regards Phil Smith
Cambridge UK incase a few more VN 1v`s pop up and we will know where they are.
Hi Cal.The splines take all the torque on the large bevel gear.I will take some pic`s with bevel gear on shaft.There was only a piece of felt under the grub screw.Did seem weird.The small bevel gear in casting seems to have thrust plate or thust bearing behind bevel gear and set by nut and and tag washer on opposite end off shaft.The shaft does move appox 3mm once nut is loosened so when I get small bevel gear off the unit will slide out. I want to get gear out as it has a few burrs.The large bevel gear unit has shims under the flange to set correct clearence between gears.I have little dental mirrow and will have a good look.With the collet, the largest taper is a MT 2. I could possible bore it out once I get under case hardening and then have it - finish ground to fit parrell shank for Er 32.The problem I will loose a bit of hight.The correct split collets would be better but all my cutters are metric.Cal if I mispell or use the wrong Terminology please bare with me as I do have dyslexia.You are being a great help and I am very greatful for your time.Regards Phil Smith
Cambridge UK incase a few more VN 1v`s pop up and we will know where they are.
Cal Haines
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Location
- Tucson, AZ
If the taper adapter collet is MT2, just buy one of these:
ER32 MT2 COLLET CHUCK #A74
You can make up a washer and use an M-10 bolt to hold the chuck into the adapter. You might have to drill your draw-tube a bit for clearance for the washer and bolt.
When you really need the vertical space, use an MT2 collet. These guys have them in metric sizes, but I'm sure there are other options:
Arc Euro Trade - Morse Taper Collets - METRIC
Of course, you'll have to make up a custom draw-bar.
I'm not sure about heating the loctite to get it to release. I understand that the temp ranges from 325 to 500F, depending on which version of loctite that you are up against. You might want to post a question in the general forum about this.
Cal
Spline
Hi Cal.Sorry about question on spline.I wrote before looking.The lenth of spline is to change between drill and fine feed.It would not suprise me if cast iron disc was placed behind bearing and weld tacted.This is why the shim is under flange on 90` bearing unit.I don`t think 1/2" grub screw was there for oiling.I`m sure it was for ajustment.There are a few things on machine that have been vandalized.At 70+ years old it`s lucky to be still around and not in melting pot,regards phil
Hi Cal.Sorry about question on spline.I wrote before looking.The lenth of spline is to change between drill and fine feed.It would not suprise me if cast iron disc was placed behind bearing and weld tacted.This is why the shim is under flange on 90` bearing unit.I don`t think 1/2" grub screw was there for oiling.I`m sure it was for ajustment.There are a few things on machine that have been vandalized.At 70+ years old it`s lucky to be still around and not in melting pot,regards phil
Cal Haines
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Location
- Tucson, AZ
Hi Phil,
I would imagine that the tag washer and nut draw up the shaft with the bevel gear to preload both bearings. There must be a spacer tube of some sort between the front and rear bearing. The grub screw probably allows whole lot to be moved in and out to adjust the mesh of the two bevel gears. I said earlier that I thought that maybe the small bevel gear and front bearing come out the front; that would be difficult to machine, so I doubt that’s the case.
I can’t visualize the brass key that you mentioned. Can you draw a sketch of what you think is going on?
It would be a real good idea to measure the position of the small bevel gear before you take it out, so that you can get it back in place as nearly as possible. I would use a telescoping gage (or better yet, a dial bore gage) to measure the distance from the front of the bevel gear to the opposite side of the casting bore. I would keep trying the measurement until I could repeat it several times to 0.02mm accuracy. (You’ll want to apply some pressure to the rear while you measure.) I would also use a depth micrometer or a drop indicator, mounted in the quill of a milling machine, to accurately measure the distance from the back end of the shaft and the rear of the casting.
You’ll want to do the same thing for the large bevel gear and its cartridge.
If the bearings for the large and small bevel gears seem to be OK, you may want to leave well enough alone. In any case, when you put it back together it would be a very good idea to blue up one of the gears and check that the two gears mesh correctly. It sounds like someone has been into this part the head at some point, so I wouldn’t count on them having set up the bevel gears correctly. Some idiot replaced the bearings in my No 16’s gearbox, which uses brass shims like the ones you found, and didn’t bother to change the shims. The bearing pre-load wasn’t anywhere close to correct and the bearings are now far beyond saving.
I'm relatively sure that the shim you found was for adjusting the mesh of the bevel gears. You need to be able to move both of the gears in and out to get them to mesh properly. The shims on my No. 16 were made from stacks of 0.005” thick leaves that were tacked together at several places; you could peel off leaves until you get to the correct thickness.
Cal
I would imagine that the tag washer and nut draw up the shaft with the bevel gear to preload both bearings. There must be a spacer tube of some sort between the front and rear bearing. The grub screw probably allows whole lot to be moved in and out to adjust the mesh of the two bevel gears. I said earlier that I thought that maybe the small bevel gear and front bearing come out the front; that would be difficult to machine, so I doubt that’s the case.
I can’t visualize the brass key that you mentioned. Can you draw a sketch of what you think is going on?
It would be a real good idea to measure the position of the small bevel gear before you take it out, so that you can get it back in place as nearly as possible. I would use a telescoping gage (or better yet, a dial bore gage) to measure the distance from the front of the bevel gear to the opposite side of the casting bore. I would keep trying the measurement until I could repeat it several times to 0.02mm accuracy. (You’ll want to apply some pressure to the rear while you measure.) I would also use a depth micrometer or a drop indicator, mounted in the quill of a milling machine, to accurately measure the distance from the back end of the shaft and the rear of the casting.
You’ll want to do the same thing for the large bevel gear and its cartridge.
If the bearings for the large and small bevel gears seem to be OK, you may want to leave well enough alone. In any case, when you put it back together it would be a very good idea to blue up one of the gears and check that the two gears mesh correctly. It sounds like someone has been into this part the head at some point, so I wouldn’t count on them having set up the bevel gears correctly. Some idiot replaced the bearings in my No 16’s gearbox, which uses brass shims like the ones you found, and didn’t bother to change the shims. The bearing pre-load wasn’t anywhere close to correct and the bearings are now far beyond saving.
I'm relatively sure that the shim you found was for adjusting the mesh of the bevel gears. You need to be able to move both of the gears in and out to get them to mesh properly. The shims on my No. 16 were made from stacks of 0.005” thick leaves that were tacked together at several places; you could peel off leaves until you get to the correct thickness.
Cal
Table feed VN no 12 or 1v
If anyone is stripping or going to work on table feed on VN no12.I have a few photo`s on photobucket.It`s a great bit of solid engeering.
Pictures by carphil13 - Photobucket
If anyone is stripping or going to work on table feed on VN no12.I have a few photo`s on photobucket.It`s a great bit of solid engeering.
Pictures by carphil13 - Photobucket
Cal Haines
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Location
- Tucson, AZ
Hi Phil,
Another great set of photos! Thanks. I haven't noticed any differences between your saddle and that of a No. 12.
Disassembly of the tilting housing for the worm gear that drives the cross-feed mechanism isn't very obvious. It pivots around a brass tube that comes in from the right side and also mounts the oil cup on the right side of the saddle. There is a cross-drilled hole in the end of the tube that lets oil into the back of the bevel gear housing. (The front of the bevel gear is oiled via the spring-loaded plunger in the front that looks like a bulls-eye.) To remove the tube, you need to back out a setscrew on the rear of the saddle and pull the brass tube. The oil cup is threaded 5/16-24 (IIRC); we used one of the gib bolts that had the same thread to pull it.
The bevel gears that engage the feed are supposed to run in an oil bath. It looks like yours have been greased. Clean that center section up and fill it with way oil before you reassemble everything.
The cross slide is lubricated by a passage that is fed from a hole in the front of the saddle. There should be a screw stamped "OIL" (or "710", depending on your perspective
) that caps the passage on the front. Make sure the passage is clear; it looks like your cross slide was run dry so it might be plugged.
Cal
Another great set of photos! Thanks. I haven't noticed any differences between your saddle and that of a No. 12.
Disassembly of the tilting housing for the worm gear that drives the cross-feed mechanism isn't very obvious. It pivots around a brass tube that comes in from the right side and also mounts the oil cup on the right side of the saddle. There is a cross-drilled hole in the end of the tube that lets oil into the back of the bevel gear housing. (The front of the bevel gear is oiled via the spring-loaded plunger in the front that looks like a bulls-eye.) To remove the tube, you need to back out a setscrew on the rear of the saddle and pull the brass tube. The oil cup is threaded 5/16-24 (IIRC); we used one of the gib bolts that had the same thread to pull it.
The bevel gears that engage the feed are supposed to run in an oil bath. It looks like yours have been greased. Clean that center section up and fill it with way oil before you reassemble everything.
The cross slide is lubricated by a passage that is fed from a hole in the front of the saddle. There should be a screw stamped "OIL" (or "710", depending on your perspective
) that caps the passage on the front. Make sure the passage is clear; it looks like your cross slide was run dry so it might be plugged.Cal
Attachments
Oil-Grease
I thought that the bevel units lubrication looked wrong.I was thinking about a cars diff and the different things used to stop noise.The machines table has about 1/4" paint and tar that has leaked from old tins in tee slots.I would think that all lub holes need a good looking at.I thought that by removing oil cap and pulling tube was the way to go .I need to stip down saddle gears as they have been removed once before .All the screw slots have been damaged by using punch to loosen,not impact driver.Do you have anymore pics of Rene`s machine.I need some pics of belt guard.I know sheet metal worker who will make one similar.I do not think a second hand one will come on market.Regards Phil
I thought that the bevel units lubrication looked wrong.I was thinking about a cars diff and the different things used to stop noise.The machines table has about 1/4" paint and tar that has leaked from old tins in tee slots.I would think that all lub holes need a good looking at.I thought that by removing oil cap and pulling tube was the way to go .I need to stip down saddle gears as they have been removed once before .All the screw slots have been damaged by using punch to loosen,not impact driver.Do you have anymore pics of Rene`s machine.I need some pics of belt guard.I know sheet metal worker who will make one similar.I do not think a second hand one will come on market.Regards Phil
Cal Haines
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Location
- Tucson, AZ
Hi Phil,
To get the bevel gears in the saddle apart you need to pull the shaft for the center gear first. It had a disk like shoulder with to screws to hold it i place and comes out the back. I made up a little hook out of a piece of copper wire to get in one of the screw holes and lift it out. (see attached photos)
Have a look at the bottom of your saddle, next to the gib and see if the serial number is stamped there:
I'll e-mail you some photos of the belt cover.
Cal
To get the bevel gears in the saddle apart you need to pull the shaft for the center gear first. It had a disk like shoulder with to screws to hold it i place and comes out the back. I made up a little hook out of a piece of copper wire to get in one of the screw holes and lift it out. (see attached photos)
Have a look at the bottom of your saddle, next to the gib and see if the serial number is stamped there:
I'll e-mail you some photos of the belt cover.
Cal
Attachments
Saddle
Hi Cal.Everyting on the saddle and table feed came apart no poblem.I have been bragging about how good the slide are.Now the problems start.The worm in tilting housing badly worn.The acme X axis lead screw nuts need repair.Main nut and ajustment nut have very little thread left in them.In the past I have recut lead screw down to were the most wear is.What I take of dia I would go that much deeper and keep same profile.Make new nuts to suit.but I need a longer lathe and traveling steady,keyway in leadscrew does not make thing easier.This will have to wait.Starting to scratch head now.broken dowels-weld on gear(I will get pic of it)hammer marks and all the damaged screws.I got tea spoon of metal filings out of parrafin when cleaning saddle.Lucky it`s a project .regards phil
Hi Cal.Everyting on the saddle and table feed came apart no poblem.I have been bragging about how good the slide are.Now the problems start.The worm in tilting housing badly worn.The acme X axis lead screw nuts need repair.Main nut and ajustment nut have very little thread left in them.In the past I have recut lead screw down to were the most wear is.What I take of dia I would go that much deeper and keep same profile.Make new nuts to suit.but I need a longer lathe and traveling steady,keyway in leadscrew does not make thing easier.This will have to wait.Starting to scratch head now.broken dowels-weld on gear(I will get pic of it)hammer marks and all the damaged screws.I got tea spoon of metal filings out of parrafin when cleaning saddle.Lucky it`s a project .regards phil
Cal Haines
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Location
- Tucson, AZ
Hi Phil,
The saddle in the photo that I posted had been run dry for so many years that the rectangular depression in the bottom was full of stiff black paste and was barely visible. It looked like it had been trowled smooth! I pulled a black plug of hardened oil out of the oil passage.
Did you have a chance to look for the serial number on the bottom of the saddle?
Cal
The saddle in the photo that I posted had been run dry for so many years that the rectangular depression in the bottom was full of stiff black paste and was barely visible. It looked like it had been trowled smooth! I pulled a black plug of hardened oil out of the oil passage.
Did you have a chance to look for the serial number on the bottom of the saddle?
Cal
Serial no
Hi Cal.I have been slacking this weekend.Rain -wind.Does not motavate me.Yes it`s stamped 23 nothing else.Now have to contend with 2 broken dowels,blind holes.Cross slide acme nut holder.The dowels are in saddle opposite to where serial no stamped.The pic`s of 10EE are great.Is lathe a ongoing project or finnshed and ready to do some work.I am realy enjoying doing the 1V .Once finnshed mill will be used for home use only.Regards Phil
Hi Cal.I have been slacking this weekend.Rain -wind.Does not motavate me.Yes it`s stamped 23 nothing else.Now have to contend with 2 broken dowels,blind holes.Cross slide acme nut holder.The dowels are in saddle opposite to where serial no stamped.The pic`s of 10EE are great.Is lathe a ongoing project or finnshed and ready to do some work.I am realy enjoying doing the 1V .Once finnshed mill will be used for home use only.Regards Phil
Cal Haines
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Location
- Tucson, AZ
Hi Phil,
3 of the bolts and both dowel pins of the saddle (in the photo above) were sheared off. The dowel pins proved to be a pain to get out. They were loose enough that I couldn't drill them out, but too tight to lift out with a magnet. When I tried to drill them out I wound up pushing them down in their holes; it would have been simple to tack weld to them while they were still up flush with the surface of the casting. I'll probably try to epoxy something to them to pull them out.
My 10EE is in service, but I still have some cosmetic things to finish and some accessories to make for it as well.
Cal
3 of the bolts and both dowel pins of the saddle (in the photo above) were sheared off. The dowel pins proved to be a pain to get out. They were loose enough that I couldn't drill them out, but too tight to lift out with a magnet. When I tried to drill them out I wound up pushing them down in their holes; it would have been simple to tack weld to them while they were still up flush with the surface of the casting. I'll probably try to epoxy something to them to pull them out.
My 10EE is in service, but I still have some cosmetic things to finish and some accessories to make for it as well.
Cal
