What is the Deal w/ Welding Gas Bottle Exchange?

A used (practically new) Hobart Handler 135 MIG welder came up for sale near me on craigslist. I was waiting for a higher amp unit to pop up. But for $275 I jumped on this one. It is in great shape, came ready to go w/ helmet, wire, regulators, manual, and an EMPTY gas bottle. The seller even threw in a router!!

Borrowed a friends gas bottle and tried it out at sellers place. Worked great. So its in my garage now.

There is a sticker on the bottle for a gas distributor that is not local to me. Since the bottle is empty, I need to get it filled. I asked seller whether he bought it or leased it. He didn't know, said he paid $100 for it. So I assume he bought it. Here is pic of bottle...


So can I just waltz in to the local Roberts Oxygen Supply and exchange for a filled bottle, pay and leave?

The sticker doesn't give a clue about what gas, other than "Unimix"? Anyone know what that is?

Also, I think this bottle might be kinda on the small side. What are my options for selling, or perhaps exchanging for a larger sz? I have no paperwork as to the status of the ownership of the bottle.

Is this size sufficient for a 135 amp MIG?? Seems kinda small. I'll bet I go through a lot of refills.

Thanks, Mark

Is it in date? Is there a star stamped after the date? If so its a 10yr bottle. So if bottle has a date like (02 97 star) then your good. I would drive away from town to get it filled. Some gas co.s will swap if in date with customer owned cylinders. Call em and ask if they fill customer owned cylinders. Small independent co.s seem much better to deal with than the big outfits. Always own your cylinders, unless you rent everything, then rent em.

I think,but I'm not sure,that Unimix is 75% CO2 and 25% argon.No matter what size the welder is it's a bitch to run out of gas in the middle of a welding session on Sat./Sun. and have to wait to finish up on Monday.I'd go for the largest tank partical.

For some reason, cylinder policies are one of the last wild local crap shoots- they vary so much from region to region.
The only way to find out is to call, or better yet, go down to the local welding supply, the place that you will continue to do biz with, and take this tank, and ask em.
It could be stolen, or it could be out of date, or it could be a size they dont carry. It could be worthless. Or it could be they will trade it for a full one, and assume you own it, without blinking.
Some areas wont let customers own tanks at all- everything is leased. Other parts of the country are really liberal about it, and will make deals with you.
I find that if you do repeat business with a welding supply, they are much more likely to be cool about oddball tanks. After all, tanks wander around the country all the time, and you are not the first person to have this problem.
I know at my local shop, if I took this in, and asked to swap up to a larger size tank, it would cost me a few bucks, probably $60 to $120, depending on the size of the tank, and it would be done with a smile.
But I have heard about wierdo policies in some parts of the country- and basically, since you need to keep getting it refilled, you are at the mercy of your local guys. Whatever they say, you gotta go with, and if it means you have to buy a new tank, well, thats just the price of doing business.
Around here, we only have one national chain, and one local chain. They both are quite nice, friendly, and easy to deal with.

Ries brings up a good point and that is what his local shop would do. Mine would do this:

Check date stamp first thing, is it in date?

if yes, then here is an equal cylinder for the price of gas, end of story see you later.

if No, then they will write my phone # on cylinder, swap cylinder with equal, charge me a hydro charge for that size and charge me for the gas. End of story if hydro good. If hydro bad, I owe them a cylinder in that size and have about a month to bring one, end of story.

I have bought at auctions and person to person about a doz. cylinders this way and I try to keep them in date and always swap for one with several years on the test left. I rarely pay for a hydro test that way which is $12.00 here on a big one.

I used to deal with Roberts/Frederick going back to the mid 70's. (think they are Potomac Airgas, Or maybe it's Arundell now). I owned 3 cylinders, 2 oxy and one argon.

As everyone else has noted, policies are completely up to the local distributor. Airgas use to be a real stickler about paperwork with any new to them owner cylinders or they would not fill them. Also, they would not swap with owner cylinders, you had to leave them for refill. Then I moved up here to Elmira, and the first thing they wanted to do was simply swap. I was surprised they didn't even seem to much care that I had brought paperwork on the cylinders. It's a better deal, especially since mine were only a couple years from the next hydro, so it worked fine for me. Plus you don't have to have duplicates of every cylinder, so one can be in the store while one is in the shop for refill. In my case, I use a couple oxy cylinders a year, but can sometimes go years on one argon, so it saves all that rent.

Call and ask about their policy, then try to figure out how to get a legitimate looking bill of sale form the previous owner, if it is required. Hopefully with all the competition things will be more liberalized.

smt

You might want to buy another cylinder and then ask them to fill that one. Keep the smaller bottle as an emergency back-up. That way they also realize that you are a customer that will be returning. Also try to buy other supplies and build a good repore with the salesman, sometimes it is better to go to a smaller local shop where it is easier to get to know the guy behind the counter and if he sees you enough he might give you some breaks. At least that has been my exp.

Toad

MorseTaper2 -- I'm in Wheaton, so it's equally convenient for me to go to the Gaithersburg or Laurel store. Mike at the Laurel store is extremely knowledgeable, very low-key demeanor, and very professional. If you ask a question, he won't BS his way through, but rather seek out the answer in books or by calling someone. The Laurel store is vastly my preference for this reason.

Regarding the tanks, it's a MUCH better deal to own tanks than to rent tanks. They pay for themselves in just over a year of cartage fees. If you're certain you're going to own your welder for over a year, just buy the tanks straight out. If you ever move away, I'd expect that Roberts will buy the tanks back, but couldn't say for sure.

Also, the bigger tanks, for me, are more agreeable: I hate needing to rush out and buy gas frequently. Perhaps 2 smaller tanks would suffice, but probably will cost more to buy. The gas should be sold by volume, so no issue there.

One last thing is that if you occasionally want to do stainless, you will need 100% argon, which is the one condition I can think of where renting the tank is a good idea.

I'm sorry, I can't answer the question regarding filling non-Roberts owner tanks, but Mike will be able to answer them for you.

I called the local welding supply (Roberts oxygen), explained the situation, they said no problem, just bring it in and they will exchange for a filled one.

I can see a project were I might want to MIG some stainless. I'm wondering if I shouldn't just by a 40 or 60 cu ft tank of 75-argon/25-CO2 for steel. And exchange the small tank for 100% argon for the odd stainless project?

Regarding tank sz for a 135 MIG. Do you think 40 or 60 cu ft? I don't have a handle on gas consumption rates for MIG's. never used one before. I'm sure at some point in the future, I'll probably buy a 215/250 amp MIG. A bigger bottle could go right to that machine.

But am thinking maybe I exchange the small tank for 75Ar/25CO2 and see how long that lasts, and make a decision from there.

This welder will get occ use. My oxy/acetylene tanks end up getting exchanges every few years. With owning a MIG. That exchange period will probably double for the OA.

It all depends on how much you weld- I run at a minimum 125's for mig, and have a few, as since I pay employees I need a full backup tank at all times.
For tig I run 250's of argon, as that stuff is running all the time.
But then, I own at least a dozen tanks, argon, oxy, acetylene, co2mix, plus a couple of propanes for the forklift, 4 or 5 little propanes for heaters, forges and the barbecue, and a 100 gallon propane for the gas forge. So almost every week we are exchanging tanks- and that gets me better service, and easier suspension of the rules.

morsetaper2, figure using about 20 cfh of gas. I wouldn't bother with that small tank. I have a 150 or so of C-25 and a 50 pound cylinder of CO2. The CO2 lasts a long time and is cheap.

Mark,First thanks for the help on the VFD.Now my turn to help.

I think your right on track on the bottle size,if you plane on upgrading to a bigger MIG then go ahead and get the bigger bottle.I am running a Miller 135 and a 250 and have the same size bottle on both(i cant rember the size).I think its money well spent.As for gas 75%AR and 25% CO2 we call it 75/25 ,i do have a bottle but rarely use it.For mild steel i use CO2 its cheeper and does just as good of a job(provided your not in a windy envioroment and it not a X-ray weld).I learned a trick when i worked in a shop if you use straight CO2 and your welding mild steel to cast iron IE building ornamental fence it comes out great cant do that with 75/25,at least it didnt work for me.Also i would buy the bottles not rent,i rented them when i was a rig welder because it was easier to get then filled anywhere in the U.S. when i was on the road but that the only reason i would rent.

I would say go with the 100% AR for SS and C02 for everything else.Hope this helps.