1928 Brown and Sharpe No2 Grinder- early spindle advice / dimensions

Hi all,

I recently acquired a complete basket case Brown and Sharpe No2 surface grinder SN #8138 - which as far as I can tell is 1928. Apologies for the other-forum link post but I really need all the help I can get on this one. She really is in a terrible terrible state. From a deceased estate it was dismantled about 10 years ago and then all parts except the body and table were put outside in boxes .. in the rain and weather.

Some more info on this thread:

http://metalworkforums.com/f65/t199759-brown-sharpe-2-surface-grinder-basket

But some photos to show the scale of the 'challenge':



I didn't actually see the carriage at first but I kicked something accidentally and there it was under a layer of grass.

The rest lived inside the barn and is in better condition. Tired, but better.

With electrolysis and a good WD40 soak everything is cleaning up and seized assemblies are coming apart. Some of it in atrocious condition, others better than you think possible. Quite some stuff will need to be remade. But, to be honest, it is looking better than it (erm) looks.

Before you all call me crazy, this is a learning experience for me. It cost me nothing and I'll learn a lot of stuff and hopefully get a grinder out of it - I have never used a grinder before. I was looking for one to learn on to make restore some gibs and other small pieces, so my questions may be a little on the naive side. Apologies.

You'll notice the spindle in the first photo above - it is 'no more pining for the fjords'. An ex-spindle. It is plain bearing spindle, but the early type. No taper, no ball/roller bearings - just a straight shaft. From the 1936 parts list it is this:



but now looks like this:



Toast. So some questions if I may. All help appreciated.

I'll need to get one made, make one, find one in an attic or something. So, anybody got one? :-) or a lead to start finding one?

If it comes to getting one made (and having the bearing 'boxes' done to match) any ideas what kind of clearance this guy has on the spindle boxes? The operator manual says 0.00011" but all indications are that is for the later taper type. Same?

Again, all help appreciated, and apologies for the link post, but, I'd like to get this old girl working again. It makes me sad to see old machinery go to scrap and that is where she was going. But she ain't going to work without a spindle so I am trying all avenues.

Greg.

what kind of clearance this guy has on the spindle boxes?

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On my #4 Universal (straight 2" journals) it isn't something to MEASURE, its something to feel when running. If it isn't warm to the touch running Velocite #6 (after running awhile) its too loose

The OUTSIDE of my Bronze boxes are tapered and have a radial slot for squeezing down the bore. The magic trick is the custom fitted phenolic SPACER in each slot so the bore CANNOT get "too small"

It makes finishes like the thumbnail

There is a world of info that will come into play - the vast selection of wheels and the fact that no wheel will cut like that unless you have and use a sharp diamond for dressing

ON EDIT

An ex-spindle

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Maybe not. Suggest you make cast iron laps (split so they an be snugged) for the two journals and see what can be done with fine compound. Pits will be of no consequence and will even help hold oil. (Full circle laps help make journal ROUND again)

I have been looking for an early belt driven No. 2 but most of these seem to have been converted to electric motors - or two of them in most cases. A recent $100 Craigslist B&S No. 2 a case in point.

Browne and Sharpe No. 2 Surface Grinder



Perhaps a re-engineering to some sort of sealed ball bearing would be best?

Joe in NH

Thanks for the reply John,

Sounds similar I think.. 2nd/3rd is rear box, 4th/5th is front box.



I may be missing a spacer on the rear - but are these the slots with spacers you are referring to?

If I read you right, you're saying

make something, try it, test for warmth, if too cold replace one of the 'stripes' on each of the above with a custom one that is smaller, if too warm replace with one larger.

Custom = make yourself I imagine. And no doubt is has to be very (very) precise. And the OD of the spindle has to be somewhere in the ballpark to begin with. Is 0.0001 typical?

Re the oil, the manual specifies an oil about the same as kerosine - ISO 2 if I recall. With a 0.00011 clearance there really is not much room for oil it seems.

Greg.

Thanks Joe - so we're both on the hunt!

Re-engineering would mean replacing the spindle head(?) box with something else or seriously altering it. So quite a big job. It seems that later spindle types used the sames castings but not this old type I believe.

I couldn't buy a whole machine for parts. Shipping 1400lbs to Melbourne, Australia is more than a little expensive!

Possibly less involved scenario:

Make or acquire "dummy" that exactly matches journal SIZE an FINISH

Make a suitable spacer that allows closing box up so it is a few tenths under that dummy's diameter (dummy does not fit in box yet)

Scrape box (bearing scrapers abound) until it is just possible to get dummy thru

Then start your fine tuning

Spacer tip: Base changes on "PI" - to reduce bore .0001", you need a spacer about .0003" thinner

Spacer slot note: On my #4 Universal (1947) the spacer slots are slightly WEDGE shaped - adding further possibilities on fitting - don't know if this was strictly a later idea or not

StrayAlien said:

Thanks for the reply John,

Sounds similar I think.. 2nd/3rd is rear box, 4th/5th is front box.

View attachment 181653View attachment 181654View attachment 181655View attachment 181656View attachment 181657

I may be missing a spacer on the rear - but are these the slots with spacers you are referring to?

If I read you right, you're saying

make something, try it, test for warmth, if too cold replace one of the 'stripes' on each of the above with a custom one that is smaller, if too warm replace with one larger.

Custom = make yourself I imagine. And no doubt is has to be very (very) precise. And the OD of the spindle has to be somewhere in the ballpark to begin with. Is 0.0001 typical?

Re the oil, the manual specifies an oil about the same as kerosine - ISO 2 if I recall. With a 0.00011 clearance there really is not much room for oil it seems.

Greg.

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No idea how far you can - or will -take this one.

Can tell you that on one as old - or several years older-yet - I asked Herr Pelz what TIR he had achieved, summer of 1960, after lapping the spindle, making and fitting new Bronze bearings 'from scratch'.

He said he could no longer be sure.

Seemed rather disappointed that the indicator [1] was showing well-under a 1/4 division with the spindle carefully hand-rotated. No longer 'good enough' to show him what more was needed.

"Go thou and do likewise"?

Outcome depends on how much you give-a-damn. The B&S #2 itself has proven to be a far better Surface Grinder than its 'basic' nature might lead one to expect.

Bill

[1] "Mauser" labeled - same logo as their rifles. Narrow wedge-shaped, not round-dialed.
AFAIK, a 'branding' exercise with Kafer or Georg Mahr as the actual maker.

Graduations were 50 millionths per-division. Had it been ten-millionths, he'd have just kept at it longer.

Plain bearings do have their advantages now and then.

Yeah, the beauty of plain bearings is that the limit of concentricity is the roundness of the spindle itself. Of course you have to keep the end features (wheel mounting journal)concentric with the bearing journals. But that is almost trivial. After that, the bearings can be in nearly any shape that allows them to be closed up and the spindle can be made to run "dead true".

Regardless, for a durable installation that will run true and cool for more than a few minutes, you will have to do some scraping on the bearing bores, and that will make the running characteristics (coolness at tight fits, primarily) ever better as the scraping facets appear all over the bore.

I like John's idea - make and hone or lap the spindle to about a .001 larger than the bore, open the boxes to just admit it, and scrape back down.

If you can get hardened blank and cylindrical grind it that would be good. But I suspect for the rest of your life you could get by making one out of pre-hard 4140 on a lathe, and making some CI laps to finish it if you don't have access to a cylindrical grinder for someththing harder.

I have a ww2 era #2 that I completely re-scraped about a dozen years ago. Mine has a ball bearing cartirdge.

Per clearances, some high end Euro grinders such as Elbe call for kerosene (as opposed to actual "oil") for the oil reservoir even today or at least recently.

John, Stephen, Monachist, thanks. Knowing there are options is a great thing.

Monachist, nice story. Yes, these do look like good units. A fair size working area for the floor space and auto feeds as well. This one has seen some life, but hopefully, she work again.

John, when you say 'spacer' are you referring to making something to fit in one of the three slots that travel the length of the bearing? What material would you make it from? Do the ones in there push out?

As a note, this spindle is not hardened.

I like the idea of the CI laps and the pre-hardened. With a few dozen attempts I might even be able to make something close. :-) The sort of thing a tool post grinder might be good for?

StrayAlien said:

John, Stephen, Monachist, thanks. Knowing there are options is a great thing.

Monachist, nice story. Yes, these do look like good units. A fair size working area for the floor space and auto feeds as well. This one has seen some life, but hopefully, she work again.

John, when you say 'spacer' are you referring to making something to fit in one of the three slots that travel the length of the bearing? What material would you make it from? Do the ones in there push out?

As a note, this spindle is not hardened.

I like the idea of the CI laps and the pre-hardened. With a few dozen attempts I might even be able to make something close. :-) The sort of thing a tool post grinder might be good for?

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If you are trying to 'justify' acquisition of a TP grinder (I have three..) then one reason is as good as another. Or no reason.



Plenty of means to get back to a working spindle. A length of store-bought precision ground stock wouldn't be the worst possible starting point. Are you anywhere near a place where hydraulic rods are ground, plated, ground again? Smidgen of oversize on the spindle, your existing Bronze bearings can almost certainly be put back to rights with a stout ration of TIME, but minimal spend in money.

That said, given the general history you've outlined, I'd suggest putting the entire spindle & bearing issue set aside..

.. until... you have sight of a fair level of comfort that you can get the OTHER bits - the overall 'chassis', its vertical and horizontal ways and feeds into good order without taking-on a moon-shot worth of labour.

Too many used & homeless SG's going at low prices to make more of a project outta THIS one than all that.

Bill

Monarchist said:

Too many used & homeless SG's going at low prices to make more of a project outta THIS one than all that.

Bill

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Not really true in Australia, alas. Depending on one's definition of 'low price' of course.

My SG cost me $58.00 as a parts kit. It does work nicely now, though. However it lacks power feed and being a bone idle type of person, this is annoying.

PDW

The only slot that counts is the THROUGH slot. The spacers in the #4 U. are PHENOLIC - long ago referred to as MICARTA. Yours may be something else.

We already discussed the fact that you would make them thinner to enable reduced bore size, so they come out, one way or another. Since it is possible for them to make contact with journal, you would not want to make them from non bearing material

John, when you say 'spacer' are you referring to making something to fit in one of the three slots that travel the length of the bearing? What material would you make it from? Do the ones in there push out?

Click to expand...

Monachist, thanks. Leaving the spindle for now is exactly what I intend to do. This is 'does anybody have one, or is it possible to fix this or make one' kind of research. This is going to take some time given the state of the poor old girl. You guys are giving me confidence that it can be sorted. Thanks.

I'm cleaning things at the moment and removing rust and freeing up seized assemblies. As it all came in boxes I don't even know if I have everything so I'll be going a mock-reassembly to understand how it goes back together and see if anything is missing. I'll also do the basic alignment tests from the Connelly chapter on surface grinders to get an idea of alignment.

As PDW says, there are not that many old B&S 2 grinders cropping up around here. I have been checking the online classifieds daily here for about three months and I have not yet seen a single one for sale in Australia. None - so they're still hiding in home workshops and sheds on farms out there. So, in the 'its more fun to bake a cake than buy one' way of thinking, I'll learn more by giving this a go. As you say, it'll take time, but I doubt it'll be too expensive if I do it myself. I generally prefer to spend my money on tools than other people labour.

John. Thanks. Excuse my newb-ness, but I reckon I understand now. I see there is just one slot of the three that goes all the way through the bearing box material. Cool.

PDW. 'bone idle' made me laugh. Happily this old girl has auto feeds, so, hopefully, they can be resurrected. I too am darn lazy. :-)

Greg.

StrayAlien said:

giving me confidence that it can be sorted. Thanks.

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Not to forget, you'll have a 'probable' investment in a proper mag chuck, and a 'for-sure' investment in at least a 'few' wheels and more than one type of dresser before it is of much actual use, even had it arrived tunkey-intact and in Bristol condition.

As PDW says, there are not that many old B&S 2 grinders cropping up around here.

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Reid, Boyar-Schulz, K.O. Lee, Covel, Sputniks and de/ass-end-ants from Taiwan one could practically trip-over, East Coast, USA.

There isn't really anything 'sacred' about a B&S SG. D'ruther have any of several others, meself.

EG: Parker-Majestic or Gardner for small stuff. Gallmeyer & Livingston/Grand Rapids, Abrasive, or DoAll for larger stuff.

So far, I've managed to keep meself convinced it makes more sense to send grinding out rather than to try to recover skills unused for fully half a century, now and waste the scarce floorspace every day, all day.

Lots of revenoo shops making the same choice on lack of current operator/setup skill as well as space.

Which is a major contributor towards putting so many manaul, even semi-auto, SG's on the market cheaply vs sending out or going to serious bucks for CNC controlled ones. If 'the work' is there for them at all.


Bill

Thanks Bill,

Yes, it is kind of sad that these old machines go out to pasture isn't it. Thank heaven I don't rely on my machining skills to pay for my supper or I might be doing the same!

But for me, it isn't so much that it is sacred, just that it is, well .. is.

But despite their years, I find these old ladies beautiful. Cast curves rather than angular lines.

There is no coming back from being scrapped. Gone. Forever. Lost. One less beautiful precision machine tool in the world - and a few more ornamental garden geese.

The sugar cane fields I ran is as a child are now housing estates. The streams I swam in are cemented canals amidst cheap housing. I haven't seen an on-road example of the car I learned to drive in for more than 20 years. Hell, I haven't seen a column-shift in years either! (bring back bench seats I say).

I am tired of phones without replaceable batteries, of tools made of metal coloured cheese, of everything you buy being made without any notion of craftsmanship and without humans that believe in the quality they produce.

I love the line in the South Bend manual - not exact but it goes like this: "with adequate care and oiling, this machine should last indefinitely". Holy crap - when do you see that nowadays!! These machines were *made* to last indefinitely. Wow ... I love that.

For this old girl, it was me or the scrap heap. Knowing that if I didn't give the old girl a chance to be usable again she would be gone forever was a weight. All it will take is time and diligence and help from good souls like you and John and Stephen and Joe(s) and Bob and we'll get there. God knows I'll need all the darn help I can get!

For me, it isn't about whether there are hassle-free working alternatives out there, but about whether this old girl will dance again. (Charleston (dance) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

The sugar cane fields I ran is as a child are now housing estates. The streams I swam in are cemented canals amidst cheap housing. I haven't seen an on-road example of the car I learned to drive in for more than 20 years. Hell, I haven't seen a column-shift in years either! (bring back bench seats I say).

I am tired of phones without replaceable batteries, of tools made of metal coloured cheese, of everything you buy being made without any notion of craftsmanship and without humans that believe in the quality they produce.

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They call it progress - but somehow I'm not so sure.

One survivor at a time, an incremental conquering of the present.

Seems funny to write this.

Joe in NH

Bring on the Great Analogue Backlash. :-)

IMHO the old plane bearing spindles gave a surface finish unmatched by modern ball bearings. They consumed a bit more HP to run and I think that was one of the reasons they went out, also they required a bit of warm up to run their best.
My #2 B&S surface grinder has a costume made spindle that came with the machine and runs very good, yes a bearing type. . With getting your basic machine done you might consider adapting a cartridge spindle until you get that old one restored.

Thanks. Good to know re your spindle, I'm not in a rush so I'll just do one thing at a time until she gets there. At my level adapting a cartridge is likely as much work as restoring / making a spindle!

Wow .. this thread is a learning experience.....I am serious looking about buying a #1 B&S universal cylindrical grinder on a dealers showroom floor $975(30 day returns ok)...Wouldn't the bearings would be about the same ?

Love that thumbnail pic .....


Thanks
Dave Lawrence