2004 VF-2SS slowly builds to Error 163

[ryan_unmanned]

Recently purchased a 2004 VF-2SS, was under power (208V) and running prepurchase. I had the seller install a 3.5" to USB upgrade then had the machine shipped about 200 miles to my shop. We had to wait on some panel upgrades, but finally last weekend got 240 run to the machine, switched over both the transformer (74/75/76) and voltage jumper to the upper limits (our voltage constantly measures ~246).

Booted up the machine, zero returned all axis, everything looks good. On Current Commands, X & Y are sitting at 0-2% load, Z is sitting at ~50%, figured this was just holding the head up. Went about doing other work (coolant, tooling, IDK), heard a noise (brake kicking on) turned around and had a 163 Z Axis Drive Fault error - Current is beyond limit. Head had dropped ~0.2" when the brake caught it. Hit reset, everything acts normally, can hand jog Z no problem. Look at Current Commands again, Z is sitting at ~60%. When I hand jog it, the Z is going all over the place from 60%-110%. I let it sit for a while, sure enough 15 min later same brake catch + 163 error. Power cycled the machine, same issue over and over.

Things I've checked:

• All servo amplifiers (not smart ones) have been lit green, even after the servo kicks off. Never a Red Fault light.
• Swapped A-axis with Z-axis amplifiers, Z-axis still fails to 163. Think this rules out the servo amplifier.
• Checked the Low Voltage pins on the MOCON board, everything was spot on.
• After one 163 kick-off, I powered everything down up to the breaker, climbed up and checked the servo temp by hand. About as warm as the bottom of a laptop, hot but not untouchable.
• When jogging the Z, no obvious sounds (groaning, etc.) to suggest its having a hard life.

From a 2002 manual (attached), think I can rule out:

• Alarm not cleared (duh)
• Low counterbalance pressure (no counter balance on my machine)
• Check motor and cable for shorts (no significant life change from when I bought it and it was running fine)
• Check Amplifier (done)

Leaves me with the following thoughts:

• Check z axis parameters - What are these? Where are these? What values should they be?
• Check the lead screw for binding - The machine was moved and leveled, could this be putting a bind on the lead screw? Would this manifest as a high current draw, that climbs until error out?
• Could the Floppy to USB upgrade be a problem? (Feels unlikely)
• Is this a problem running at 240V instead of 208? (Feels unlikely, transformer should make everything downstream unaware of the incoming voltage)
• Out of ideas

Appreciate any help/feedback!

 

[Donkey Hotey]

Okay, 2004 VF-2 (not SS). Just fired it up to compare your findings. I have nearly identical Z-axis loads. Same jumpy results as it's jogged up or down.

Incoming power:

• Are you on a phase converter or proper 3-phase power. I'm not hating on phase converters but, it could affect voltages you measure vs reality.
• What is your high voltage DC bus voltage? If you're comfortable with lethal voltages, you can probe the plus and minus wires at any of the amplifiers. The voltage is nominally 320V but, could be 340 or could be slightly lower. You can also press Params and then page down once to get to the readouts for things like Spindle Temp and bus voltage. They should match unless the Mocon has issues (AMHIK). Looking at params is probably good enough unless you want to make sure they match the measurement.

So you understand how your machine gets high voltage DC:

• Incoming power goes to the transformer. You tap the correct terminals that coincide with the incoming AC power. This is the only place you can affect the final voltage.
• Voltage comes out and goes to the Vector Drive.
• Inside the vector drive, there is a bridge rectifier to turn it into DC and some capacitors to smooth the ripple. That's it. There is no voltage regulation of any kind except those taps.

Being on the high end of the incoming voltage, the amplifier might be getting more watts across the junctions than it wants to see.

 

[Stirling]

servo tuning?
very minor missalignment of the encoder?

my lathe has a minor missalignment on the encoder, just enough that the motor runs warm-hot. seems to be dependant on the temp when i turn on and home the lathe.(ya its that close)
keep in mind the warmer the motor gets the less evective the magnetizm is, therefor it pumps more amps, makng more heat and so on.
if my servo (slant bed x axis) runs to hot it will trigger a overtorque alarm.
(i really need to get it fixed one day. but its obsolite and last time i sent it for alrgnment they lost if for 2 months, and its the only lathe... soooo not cool)

 

[ryan_unmanned]

@donkey

• Proper three phase power
• HV DC Bus ~322V
• The largest transformer "source size" is labeled up to 244V-260V, so I would think the machine wouldn't be unhappy at 246V.
• Thanks for verifying the Z Axis loads aren't unusual!

@Stirling

• Would either of those things occur from moving the machine and/or switching to a different voltage?

 

[Donkey Hotey]

Okay, throwing another possibility in there: do you know that the A-axis amplifier is good? At one time, mine also started giving the Z-axis drive fault failure. To fix it, I swapped in the unused A-axis amp. I'm wondering if maybe that's been done already to yours and you now have two bad amplifiers.

In the case of mine, it only tossed the error when it was cold. Hot day? No problems. Cold day? Let the electronics cabinet warm up for a few hours and it would eventually pass. The problem got gradually worse. I suspect a cold solder joint on that one.

And: do you have the original manual? It should have the factory parameters and settings all printed out in the back. If you don't, it's also on the floppy the factory packed it with. I'd share my parameters but, yours being a super speed, will have different values.

One more note: the Z-axis on mine never visibly moves, bobs or anything when the brake comes on. Never seen it drop even a little. That concerns me on yours.

 

[Stirling]

@donkey

• Proper three phase power
• HV DC Bus ~322V
• The largest transformer "source size" is labeled up to 244V-260V, so I would think the machine wouldn't be unhappy at 246V.
• Thanks for verifying the Z Axis loads aren't unusual!

@Stirling

• Would either of those things occur from moving the machine and/or switching to a different voltage?

I cannot imagine switching voltage makes a dofference.
Moving maaaaaybe? If you where rough on it.
On my (old style fagor) servo the encoder is held in place by friction. Bumping the chuck (oops) make it move a little in that servo.
Jist my experience likely not yours but food for thought.

As for the head dropping. Older generations would drop unless they had “power failure detection” option installed. My 05. Tm would drop .1
My 08 vf about .0.1
If j e-stop before hitting power down it does not drop at all

All newer controlled have the “power failure detection” module installed as default

 

[Stirling]

Okay, throwing another possibility in there: do you know that the A-axis amplifier is good? At one time, mine also started giving the Z-axis drive fault failure. To fix it, I swapped in the unused A-axis amp. I'm wondering if maybe that's been done already to yours and you now have two bad amplifiers.

In the case of mine, it only tossed the error when it was cold. Hot day? No problems. Cold day? Let the electronics cabinet warm up for a few hours and it would eventually pass. The problem got gradually worse. I suspect a cold solder joint on that one.

And: do you have the original manual? It should have the factory parameters and settings all printed out in the back. If you don't, it's also on the floppy the factory packed it with. I'd share my parameters but, yours being a super speed, will have different values.

One more note: the Z-axis on mine never visibly moves, bobs or anything when the brake comes on. Never seen it drop even a little. That concerns me on yours.

I had a vector drive with a cold solder issue. Same thing. Worked good warm, not cold. Progressively got worse. Ended up buying a used control board (the little board inside) and was good.
I know the exact chip that’s the issue but cannot purchase with the program in it apperently. Lame.
And I’m pretty sure frogging with it overheated it and whipped the program off the chip I had. Got a little to hot with the hot air station.
Still way cheaper ($1500usd) for the lip board vs a new vector drive

 

[Donkey Hotey]

As for the head dropping. Older generations would drop unless they had “power failure detection” option installed. My 05. Tm would drop .1
My 08 vf about .0.1
If j e-stop before hitting power down it does not drop at all

All newer controlled have the “power failure detection” module installed as default

That's why I particularly mentioned it. His and my machine are both 2004. To my knowledge, there were no major changes give or take at least a year back then.

I also don't believe I have the power failure detection module. I know I didn't specify it on the build but my sales guy thought that was an important option and tried to bury it somewhere on any of his new sales. What does it even look like and where is it in the cabinet?

 

[Stirling]

That's why I particularly mentioned it. His and my machine are both 2004. To my knowledge, there were no major changes give or take at least a year back then.

I also don't believe I have the power failure detection module. I know I didn't specify it on the build but my sales guy thought that was an important option and tried to bury it somewhere on any of his new sales. What does it even look like and where is it in the cabinet?

I belive it’s just a simple clip on module that measures voltage and issues an e-stop commend if their is a significant drop.
Not sure what it looks like.

Seeing as the “drop” amount is based on time from power loss to deactivation of electro magnet holding the break off, the distance it falls will be somewhat proportional to the friction/stiction in each individuals assembly.

Tho we may be getting a bit off topic now :p

 

[Donkey Hotey]

I did some research last night and found my own posts on another forum about the power failure detection module. At least I'm consistent.

Now that I've been reminded of what it looks like, I know that I don't have one. Back to the original topic: I'll need to rest my hand on the headstock and hit e-stop because I don't remember it ever budging. Still trying to use my machine as an example of how a 2004 VF2 should be expected to behave.

 

[Turbo442]

Things I've checked:

• All servo amplifiers (not smart ones) have been lit green, even after the servo kicks off. Never a Red Fault light.

Servo drivers can still be bad with the green light on.

• Swapped A-axis with Z-axis amplifiers, Z-axis still fails to 163. Think this rules out the servo amplifier.

The A axis amplifier (servo drive) is 30 amps. The Z axis amplifier (servo drive) is 45 amps. If your Z and A servo drivers are identical 30 amp models that is your problem. Some one blew up your Z driver and incorrectly replaced the 45 amp model with the 30 amp model. That’s why it’s overheating.

Checked the Low Voltage pins on the MOCON board, everything was spot on.

From a 2002 manual (attached), Check z axis parameters - What are these? Where are these? What values should they be?

I would 100% compare your current machine parameter and setting list to the original machine parameters as shipped from the factory. Not just the Z axis parameters but everything. All the original parameters are listed in your binder that hopefully came with your mill. If not you can ask the HFO to get the printout of the parameter list for your machine. Go through it line by line and check every parameter and setting. There will be sone differences. Try and figure out why they were changed. If you get stumped you can ask here.

One last thing, as long as your taps are set correctly on your transformer 246 volts should be fine. I have run a 2004 VF2 for years in the 250-260V range with no issues.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

The A axis amplifier (servo drive) is 30 amps. The Z axis amplifier (servo drive) is 45 amps. If your Z and A servo drivers are identical 30 amp models that is your problem. Some one blew up your Z driver and incorrectly replaced the 45 amp model with the 30 amp model. That’s why it’s overheating.

I can't say definitively because I have not been inside a super speed but, my 2004 VF-2 is all 30 amp drives. I still have all the drive amplifiers that my machine left the factory with, including a bad Z axis amp.

Maybe this is true on bigger machines or the Super speed models and this is worth double checking. If the Super Speed does in fact expect a 45 amp drive and the parameters are forcing a 30 amp to do that work, it could be a problem.

 

[Turbo442]

Z axis should have a 45 amp z driver.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

Okay, yours is a later machine. Mine is November 2004 (close to the OP) and I just looked at the original Z amp that came out of it to doubly verify what I posted. Mine is a 32 amp and @ryan_unmanned likely has the same, unless the super speed models were the first to get the higher amperage.

I'm not surprised that yours has the 45 amp. I wonder if the axis motor changed or they just use the higher amperage with the same motor and wiring.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

Now you have me wondering if maybe this is why mine blew the Z axis amplifier. Your amplifiers are dated December of 2004. What build date is your machine? My blown amp is October of 2004 and the machine is a month later. So my guess is you have maybe a January 2005?

I'm going to call my HFO and try to figure out if this thing was built wrong.

Just got off the phone. Unfreaking believable. They said mine is supposed to have a 45 amp amplifier too. So either they updated all the old records for replacement parts being upgraded or it was actually assembled incorrectly and it was on the original BoM all along.

 

[Garwood]

Unfreaking believable.

Not to some.

I've seen multiple Haas's of that generation with a bad 4th servo drive having never been used with a 4th at all. It was swapped at some point and never repaired.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

Based on what we've all now learned, I would swap the X or Y amplifier into the Z position and see if that corrects the problem or not. No guarantees that the 4th and Z aren't both bad. The SS models have/had a faster ballscrew, which means they would also experience more holding load on the Z axis motor and amp.

Man, I think of all the times I've left machines powered on, humming along, gone to lunch, done hours of programming and it was pumping power through that amp and motor. I'm going to go back to E-stopping the machine when I'm not immediately ready to use it.

 

[Turbo442]

Based on what we've all now learned, I would swap the X or Y amplifier into the Z position and see if that corrects the problem or not. No guarantees that the 4th and Z aren't both bad. The SS models have/had a faster ballscrew, which means they would also experience more holding load on the Z axis motor and amp.

Man, I think of all the times I've left machines powered on, humming along, gone to lunch, done hours of programming and it was pumping power through that amp and motor. I'm going to go back to E-stopping the machine when I'm not immediately ready to use it.

If your having issues with the Z axis and the Z screw is not noisy I would just throw a 45amp smart amp at it.

Not to some.

I've seen multiple Haas's of that generation with a bad 4th servo drive having never been used with a 4th at all. It was swapped at some point and never repaired.

Yeah i'm sure most shops that dont use the 4th axis know they can use it as a hot spare on other machines which is why a lot of them wind up being bad....I'm sure machinery dealers do this as well.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

If your having issues with the Z axis and the Z screw is not noisy I would just throw a 45amp smart amp at it.

This is my personal machine. Bought it new. It has 192 in-cut hours on it (ended up with other machines in my world and this one sat). Nothing is noisy. Nothing is worn. But I also just bought the replacement 4th axis amp because I'm finally putting the rotary to work. I could have bought the proper Z amp literally 5-6 weeks ago. That's why I'm unusually ticked over this.

Hey @ryan_unmanned , what's going on with yours? Have you swapped in an X or Y amp to be absolutely sure it's not a case of two bad amplifiers?

 

[Turbo442]

This is my personal machine. Bought it new. It has 192 in-cut hours on it (ended up with other machines in my world and this one sat). Nothing is noisy. Nothing is worn. But I also just bought the replacement 4th axis amp because I'm finally putting the rotary to work. I could have bought the proper Z amp literally 5-6 weeks ago. That's why I'm unusually ticked over this.

Hey @ryan_unmanned , what's going on with yours? Have you swapped in an X or Y amp to be absolutely sure it's not a case of two bad amplifiers?

Do your amps all have close mfg dates like mine? I doubt it means anything if not but if they do I could see it coming from the factory like that.