A suggestion for dealing with hobby machinist posts

[Toolmaker51]

Stupid questions often grow out of crappy guidance elsewhere.
There's not one of us who dares claim; a) ran  every type of machine
b) on every variety of material
c) via every available process
d) in every grade of facility
e) under conditions with every conceivable (or lack of) resource
f) the errant notion every post is someone with equivalent background
h) additionally, those multiply in range of manufacturing environments without a universal vocabulary.

That's not a quarter of variables thwarting raw material becoming a useful object.
Pre internet, reliance on shop personnel was #1 source. There were limitations on that, because many old timers had never worked elsewhere. When a junior watched careless work habits didn't help.
Niether does the continual reduction of seasoned old hands, a quantity of those mentored by seniors years before adulthood, of joining workforce.

Rife with nobodys, internet fosters loads of ill-posed 'advice' and worse yet 'expertise', that a newbie cannot discern from quality instruction. Mal-exposure is far beyond output of the past, with all the trade schools, voc ed, apprenticeships running full tilt.
Next, not final, certainty posing Question X is seconds away from a coarse diatribe by members with self awarded elitism. There are plenty whose experience is ONLY within confines of someone elses capital investment; no exposure of travails inherent in starting out.

 

[implmex]

Hi Toolmaker51:
Yeah, I get what you're saying about the quality of what you sometimes find on the internet when you look for a solution to a machining problem or when you're trying to educate yourself about how to do something.
Some of the "Experts" out there are breathtakingly stupid, and as you say, there's no way for a Noob to tell the good from the bad, other than the "common sense" test.

Having said that, I still get a lot of useful information from the internet much more easily than I've ever been able to get before there was an internet, so overall I'm happy it's there and I'm happy PM is there.

So I try to post usefully about the things I am familiar with in a way that Noobs can understand.
That improves this resource and in return, gives me a better chance at access to the knowledge others possess that I do not.
I find that if I can drill down to what the hobby guy is REALLY asking I can often contribute at least something useful even when the question is clumsily posed, or missing key bits of information.

I have reaped the benefit of other people's expertise in the same way when I have posed a question in a way that makes my own ignorance obvious, so I figure to cut those hobby posters some slack when their queries don't have everything in them that I would need in order to offer the gold plated version, or the "professional" version of the way forward.

I don't personally care if they're hobbyists in the machining domain...maybe they have their own expertise that I will need sometime in the future, and if I wasn't an asshole toward them, I have a better chance of being able to tap into that expertise when I need it.

So there's value to me in building up goodwill one person at a time...of course, sometimes you'll encounter a dickwad and have to give him a dope slap, but not very often, so long as you don't come blazing out of the gate with insults or other demeaning shit before they've even had a chance to show who they are.

I can't remember very many instances where that approach has failed me, here or anywhere else.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[john.k]

A comment....I used to advertize jobs and get 17 year olds with 25 years experience applying..........now I advertize jobs ....and get no one applying.

 

[trevj]

Marcus, I think you have actually solved it.

Nobody knows it all. Sometimes the newbs know what you need to.

It's not a conclusive solution, but it's a Practical one!

If yer gonna be a Practical Machinist, yer gonna have to sometimes just suck it up and accept that you do not know it all!

 

[MilGunsmith]

When I work with students, as I did with two visiting nephews in Vo-Tech over Christmas, I tell them that they are learning and the only stupid question is the one that they dont ask. I also tell them to ask the question in a way that shows that they are trying to expand on what info that they already have. If they go on a forum like PM and identify themselves as students, there should be an understanding from the board members that they are only trying to better their knowledge in the trade. Unfortunately the young generation only knows how to use the internet for info instead of opening a book, like Machinery's Handbook, and finding the info themselves.

 

[guythatbrews]

Unfortunately the young generation only knows how to use the internet for info instead of opening a book, like Machinery's Handbook, and finding the info themselves.

This is part of the problem, and even manifests itself in thread titles, like "Help!"

It's not much fun to help people who won't help themselves, hobbyist or not. The passive nature of the internet has overflowed into active pursuits, like participation in a discussion, or a forum.

Pursuit of information is not the same thing as pursuit of knowledge. But seems some folks don't know the difference.

I'm not knocking pursuit of information. I sure don't miss the thomas register! Just do some leg work before you bust out your question.

 

[eKretz]

A big problem with the whole situation comes right there. Many of the inane question askers are NOT students, nor do they care to be. They want a quick fix to their problem, because this entire trade is easy, right? Not like there's any skill involved.

I think that most here do not want to invest time into someone who isn't seriously investing time into learning.

 

[rdenney]

New guy here. I'm certainly the hobbiest hobbyist of them all.

As not at all a beginner to forums, however, I would suggest that if people only wrote about what they personally knew to be true, this thread and what led to it would not need to exist. That advice applies equally to beginners, hobbyists (who may or may not be beginners), and pros (who may or may not be beginners).

Given how little I personally know to be true, my reading-to-posting ratio is huge. But even where I am on the steep part of the learning curve, I've had a few things to offer. And a lot gets discussed on this forum by those who are professionals but whose expertise lies elsewhere from the question they are asking or the opinion they are declaiming. A couple of times that has intersected with stuff I personally know to be true, or at least knowledge with limitations I'm competent to recognize.

Rick "a former professional drafter in industry, auto mechanic, and current engineer, who has 1.) studied How to Run a Lathe, and 2.) looked stuff up in the Machinery's Handbook rather than asking about it on a forum" Denney

 

[michiganbuck]

On the lead-in page after What's new
..we might add: Avoid hobby questions and machines / Make the title relevant to the subject.
I dont find it eay to find the riles.

 

[DDoug]

On the lead-in page after What's new
..we might add: Avoid hobby questions and machines / Make the title relevant to the subject.

Just put it in the "User Agreement" and I'm sure everyone will read & follow it......

 

[michiganbuck]

Q: How can I get more parts and good surface finishes from a grinding wheel without having a grinder?
The wheels seem to last forever..but I'm not getting anything done and I have tried every grit and grade wheel one could think of..darn.
Someone said that a better-quality drill press might help.

 

[ezduzit]

...Many of the inane question askers are NOT students, nor do they care to be. They want a quick fix to their problem,...most here do not want to invest time into someone who isn't seriously investing time into learning.

This is the root of the problem. Questions such as: "What rpm do I need to turn 2" diameter mild steel?" can be answered by simply looking at a speeds and feeds chart, and so can seem like the huge waste of time they actually are.

 

[Toolmaker51]

I can't remember very many instances where that approach has failed me, here or anywhere else.
Cheers
Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

In total agreement, inarguable. Plenty (overwhelming percentage) of respectable web content. Using discretion, and there's always an upgrade. Unsure how I distinguish correct from less correct, but hinges on their ability 'painting' what I can then visualize. Know anyone hooked on early Machinist Handbooks, Audels, Colvin, Henry Ford courses, USN ir Army MR manuals, Marks Engineering, etc? It's conceivable to ignore every mentor, follow those, and be potentially error free. But ALL of those pertain to vast resources and facilities. The content of certain you-tube folks is well (better) geared to smaller footprints. Most though, grew up in big shops, what makes them so relatable.
I've written a million times to people labeling themselves "machining hobbyists". Irksome, self-limiting, rejecting what they are part of. Model railroaders, static car and plane builders are hobbyists (PLEASE, none take offense, hear it out.) Every shed machinist emulates a company. They invest sums to do exactly what the largest firms do for profit, most with no expectation of return. Pure enjoyment only. One I know makes kitchen tools, all go to homemakers as gifts. Another turned plasma drops (lol, not the hot slag) into smallbore targets he sells a few, most went to clubs, scrap prices killed that. Wish for a poll how many machinists go home, just to run more machines. It's a good addiction. Then, the cubicle gophers dying for tangible evidence of a craft.
Heck. Got to cut off, the Ms is hot for curb surfing.
She scores remarkable finds.
I have the truck and the extra hoisting ooomph.

 

[john.k]

Anyone ever worked in a shop sees lazy people asking one guy how to do stuff ,same question next week ,or even next day.......doesnt end well if the guy asked doesnt know either ,or gives out the wrong info .

 

[trevj]

When I work with students, as I did with two visiting nephews in Vo-Tech over Christmas, I tell them that they are learning and the only stupid question is the one that they dont ask. I also tell them to ask the question in a way that shows that they are trying to expand on what info that they already have. If they go on a forum like PM and identify themselves as students, there should be an understanding from the board members that they are only trying to better their knowledge in the trade. Unfortunately the young generation only knows how to use the internet for info instead of opening a book, like Machinery's Handbook, and finding the info themselves.

Sorry. But I taught a bunch of clueless newbs, how to make good parts (if slowly) on Manual Machine Tools. Am pretty proud of being able to pass on both what I was taught, AND what I learned hard, to all of them!

There ARE stupid questions! If you ask a question, that you already know where to find the correct answer to, or if you already know the correct answer, but ask anyways, hoping to find a path that does not include work and thought, it's probably a Stupid Question!

Machinery's Handbook (Machinery was a Trade Magazine, long ago, and compiled a LOT of stuff that guys needed to know, into a handy book, before the Internet, by maybe 80 years or so...!) was, and is, a pretty solid source for data. But it is by no means the ONLY source, and we frequently found stuff that was not covered in that book, like finding the specs for a UNJ thread, as one example, that we needed to know, and were only available by doing a little research online.
It was all incorporated in to the training, same as being able to read the optimum cut conditions, from a tool catalog, for any particular insert.

So, fundamentally, I disagree with the idea that there are NO stupid questions. Most of the ones I heard, were from laziness, not stupidity or ignorance.

Ignorance can be cured, stupidity, not so much. Esp., if you are not allowed to hit them with sticks!