[Unethical] marketing involving [at least one] forum member here

[fmari --MariTool-]

Being licensed means you have the gaging from Big Kaiser that can be tracked to the master. In Jan 2013 we reached out to Big Kaiser and they were not interested in talking with us about licensing. No discussion about terms or pricing, they just were not interested. So it is what it is, we didnt let that slow us down or stop us from making dual contact tool holders.

We reverse engineered and made our own gaging to properly check the taper to flange relationship. Not knowing what tolerance is allowed we measured over 100 "certified" dual contact tool holders and recorded the deviations. To error on the safe side we cut that in 1/2 and use that as our tolerance for manufacturing. To this date we have many many dual contact tool holders in the feild with nothing but positive feedback.

If customers call and ask I tell them straight forward that we are not certified and they should do what they feel comfortable with. We make it clear on our website and do not hide the fact that our tool holders are not certified and BIG-PLUS® is a trademark of Daishowa Seiki Kabushiki Kaisha; Big Daishowa Seiki Co., Ltd., Corp. and is used only for identification purposes.

 

[riabma77]

Thanks for the explanation Frank.

Maybe that gage is coming with a huge price tag, politics and BS. Even in Nikken is licensed, with the associated cost, and are upset for the market they're loosing, it doesn't justify videos like that.

I don't believe in brands. Only in facts. Keep up with the good work!

Ricardo

 

[Mtndew]

they should do what they feel comfortable with.

We've bought a few dual contact holders from you in the past, and if we end up getting the machine I think we're going to get, you'll be getting an order for about 10-20 more from us!

 

[exkenna]

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win”

Mahatma Gandhi.

Frank's doing it the right way. I hope if he ever adds a distributor.. I'm the first one.

 

[broke]

Frank, you'll be getting our business going forward. It's good to see that your mindset (a handshake that still means something) is still around.

To anyone who thinks that that is an appropriate sales tactic, take note of the response in this thread.

 

[mhajicek]

I have never been shy about the extensive side by side comparisons of your tool holders and the Nikkens that we own.** Not to mention how Maritool tool holders have either squarely kicked Nikken butt the vast majority of the time, and the very few times that they have not they have at the very least equaled them.

I found this:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1yyN6WaWiMqs44E9geW3Tw/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0

but couldn't find any comparisons. Willing to share a link please?

 

[chip_maker]

Calling you out by name is pretty personal. To me it sounds a lot like a disgruntled ex employee.

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

I found this:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1yyN6WaWiMqs44E9geW3Tw/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0
but couldn't find any comparisons. Willing to share a link please?

Sorry, not in that manner of format. More of a conversational thing in various threads discussing tooling. On a few different forums, as well as here a few times.

Notable recollections are things like measuring the collet seat of both, (in various Gauge Line Lengths ) while seated in the spindle, overall Surface Finish between the two, as well as in the collet seats and on the CAT taper. The Maritool tool holders were usually anywhere from 0.0001" - 0.00015" better than the Nikken tool holders were. The shorter Gauge Line lengths were closer to 0.00005" - 0.0001" in difference, but there was a commonly better held quality of runout of the Maritool tool holders in the longer Gauge Line lengths. Specifically, the 3.0" & 4.0" SK collet holders and the 4.0 GL Shell Mill holders. Those are almost universally better quality than the Nikken ones, by 0.00015" or more!

As well, Frank, Tom, and the gang provide a holder that has better attention to detail, throughout. It is not uncommon for the Nikken ones to have some minor eccentricity to their ODs. This is not a big deal in most cases, but when it comes to higher speed spindles and balancing, it makes a big deal. It becomes obvious that they take pride in their balancing.

Too, like many others around here I have been doing this for a few weeks now. Yet, somehow I can still manage to come up with some monumentally inane and stupid questions. The Maritool boys have never once failed to be patient and assist when called upon. I once had a question about tool holder tapers and ability to interchange with regard to a spindle speeder. Tom didn't have a clue about my question and Frank was out, driving the truck at the time I called. Tom transferred my call right to Frank's cell phone in effort to help out, and Frank spent 20+ minutes helping me when they both knew it had nothing to do with them and they would realize not one cent from the effort.

I've been purchasing my CAT40 tooling and SK collets from them for a few years now, and we have to tool up a CAT50 machine now. Speaking with a friend, he asked where I wanted to purchase the tooling from. I replied that I was not willing to give anyone else my money, but Maritool. Every single holder possible for that machine will come from them. Period.

In fact, my local tooling rep that I deal with for inserts and cutting tools offered me a very good deal on some tool holders, very recently. It put Nikken and another brand not very much more than Maritool will cost us. I declined the very generous offer. I know from experience that Maritool holders are typically better and at the worst - as good as any others. But you can't disregard value and customer service...

We are unabashedly a Maritool shop.

Apologies if this reads like an infomercial. We get no consideration for it. Just a genuinely satisfied and happy customer.

 

[RC Mech]

Like the OP, I watched about 15 seconds of that video and thought "WTH?". Blatant false advertising.

I found MariTool through this forum a few years ago. Well done Frank, I like your attitude and your approach. Precision and integrity from the cylindrical grinder through to the C-suite.

-A happy Canadian customer.

 

[Generic Default]

When I posted this thread last night the video had just under 400 views, now it's at ~700.

I think the youtube channel LyndexNikkenMedia is probably an American affiliate of the Japanese company Lyndex-Nikken. Usually big Japanese companies like this have multiple social media channels, and since there are no Japanese characters anywhere in this channel it leads me to believe that the Japanese parent company is completely unaware of the content.

My theory is that Lyndex was losing a lot of sales to Maritool on SK holder specifically since Maritool has them at a much lower price. So the sales/marketing people bought one from Maritool, hoping to run indicator tests/cutting tests on it to try to find any marketable material, like for example if the Maritool one had more runout than theirs or if it chattered during a cut, ect.
Then when they didn't get any quantifiable "weak points" on the Maritool SK holder, they turned the Feed Override knob on the control panel to 150%. The video format is showing the two tests side-by-side but they had to start them at different times otherwise it would be blatantly obvious to viewers than one of them was being run significantly faster than the other. The side-by-side video layout suggests they originally intended to show them running simultaneously, and they had to edit the videos out of phase later on. This is evidence to me that it could not have been unintentionally done."Oops, looks like someone bumped the feed override."


Still, I doubt the Japanese parent company was ever aware of this marketing tactic. Probably just one guy at the subsidiary who felt pressured to sell tools.

 

[riabma77]

I agree. I just checked their youtube channel and I found this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8bkUvEkVEM

They're embarrasing their own line of ER chucks! Really???

With a marketing department like this, you don't need to be worry about your competitors! LOL

 

[EndlessWaltz]

Well they just lost about...hold....

$4,300.00++ because of this stunt.

That is what happens when you hire dumb jocks that didn't get anywhere on their football scholarship to be salesman.

 

[riabma77]

I like the Japanese culture. I doubt a 'dirty' video like that will ever come from their headquarters. Anybody with minimum common sense, will know what conclusions to obtain.

 

[Bigbore050]

I like the Japanese culture. I doubt a 'dirty' video like that will ever come from their headquarters. Anybody with minimum common sense, will know what conclusions to obtain.

I like MariTool, and I like also Nikken. Somebody's incompetence won't stop me to choose the best for my business.

I couldn't agree with you more on the Japanese.

But that "somebody" put a lot of time and effort doing this test and making that video with intentional inaccurate results.

That somebody will get more coins in their pocket when I buy Lyndex over another brand.

If that somebody can't be honest about their own product how can I expect them to be even slightly honest with me.

That somebody is not whats best for my business.

 

[Speedie]

Well they just lost about...hold....

$4,300.00++ because of this stunt.

That is what happens when you hire dumb jocks that didn't get anywhere on their football scholarship to be salesman.

BUT the video will do more damage than that to Mari tool. Bummer! Definitely a jockied

 

[riabma77]

I couldn't agree with you more on the Japanese.

But that "somebody" put a lot of time and effort doing this test and making that video with intentional inaccurate results.

That somebody will get more coins in their pocket when I buy Lyndex over another brand.

If that somebody can't be honest about their own product how can I expect them to be even slightly honest with me.

That somebody is not whats best for my business.

I agree with you. I deleted my comment so it doesn't create confusion.

For example in my case, almost of all my SK tooling is SK06. I wish MariTool will have them in their catalog, and my business would go with them.

It will be smart to go with SK10 or SK16, only to avoid to do business with Nikken?

Sometimes you need to put feelings aside and choose what is better for you, independently where your money goes.

 

[Jaxian]

I wonder if the lack of interest in licensing the gauging so Maritool could get on the 'approved' list is maybe a cross marketing big company thing at a different level.

By this I mean that when I purchased my new Doosan DNM5700 the tooling section of the brochure/price sheet, right after extolling the virtues of Dual Contact tooling, had their approved vendors list. More importantly it was noted that if you had a warranty issue related to the spindle and you had been using non licensed Dual Contact tool holders you may not be covered.

TL;DR Use our partners tooling, or no warranty.

 

[Tonytn36]

I wonder if the lack of interest in licensing the gauging so Maritool could get on the 'approved' list is maybe a cross marketing big company thing at a different level.

By this I mean that when I purchased my new Doosan DNM5700 the tooling section of the brochure/price sheet, right after extolling the virtues of Dual Contact tooling, had their approved vendors list. More importantly it was noted that if you had a warranty issue related to the spindle and you had been using non licensed Dual Contact tool holders you may not be covered.

TL;DR Use our partners tooling, or no warranty.

The Japanese have a lot of "back scratching" in business matters. Most likely Frank was ignored because he isn't a Japanese company. There is a lot of back-door deals in the Japanese culture that go back many, many years - sometimes centuries.

 

[Ox]

LOL!

I guess someone is too far removed from Detroit / Chit-Town.


--------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[YdnaD]

I subscribed to that Lyndex youtube channel many years ago since I had been a fan of their products, but I quickly realized it was just a pet project by somebody with a camera. I mean they don't even use a damn tripod, the stuff was filmed with a cellphone then edited with Windows Movie Maker. Prime example is this absolute joke of a technical video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-T4CdzqAPA

For such a large and renown company I wanted to see good content and learn new things, not watch somebody's home movies. It really made me question the outreach of Lyndex as a whole, that the actual Japanese company would want their name on it.

Looking at their videos now, it appears they've indeed hired a company to produce the content, since the quality has gone up. They finally have a tripod. Regardless it should be lesson number one in video marketing; that you should never attempt to whine about how much better your stuff is compared to the competition. Look what happens...