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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt_isserstedt View Post
    Probably the worst one, its the long Z-axis on my Monarch EE. I asked if they could sell just the reader and I could keep the carbon fiber tube but they told me they are matched sets.
    Who told you this? The only time you cant use any old spherosyn with a new reader head or vica versa is if you are running that dp500 stuff. We sell Spherosyn and Microsyn 5/10 reader heads all day long. Well, used to. When you could get parts from them.

    If you are running a C80, you should be using just a standard set of scales.

    Jon
    H&W Machine Repair

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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    are these the ditron units? i dont see the gt scales in your shop.
    Here is sample listing: Digital ReadOut DRO kit for 9x42 Bridgeport Mill w Glass scales 2 axis NEW | eBay
    Monitor is made in China by Ditron, and as I originally stated, those 7 segment monitors seem to last. Less than 0.1% failure in the first year. Of course it does not compare to Western brands such as ZS instruments DR300/DR400, Acurite, Newall, etc. Which are all more intuitive, better fit & finish, better manual, more features and those features are actually usable.

    Glass scales are a different story, those are precision products, which have to be well designed, and require a controlled environment and extreme care during the manufacturing process. That's why we introduced GT scales which are assembled locally. It solved a lot of issues with quality control, and significantly reduced number of warranty returns, but still could not address the accuracy and fundamental flaws of Chinese design. Until we developed and started producing LE/LT scales in the USA from scratch. With thousands sold over the last 5 years, the only failure we saw were user error related such as overtravel/pulled cables/forklift crash.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsinstruments View Post
    Sir, if you can pinpoint a fault, remove the old scale, install and then align a new one, all in a few minutes, you are in very high demand! Every DRO dealer would pay top dollar to hire you as a field technician!
    Well, if a shop owner can't plug in a known good scale, then swap it for a faulty one in 1 hour, that doesn't speak well for their capabilities.
    But you're playing stupid word games at this point, so nothing has to make sense to you.

    Once again, you've completely ignored pertinent questions about your claims. You spin the words and facts the way you want to. I imagine the low cost (and accurate and reliable) DRO systems that sell on EBAY and Ali-Express these days, cut into your business drastically. That's probably why you feel the need to bash such products. Hopefully others might be able to read thru the posts and find this useful when shopping for a DRO system. Too bad you feel a need to blatantly bash your competitors like you choose to do. Even if it means skewing the facts, and adding in a heap of BS.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkmc View Post
    Well, if a shop owner can't plug in a known good scale, then swap it for a faulty one in 1 hour, that doesn't speak well for their capabilities.
    So is it a few minutes or 1 hour? So far you've been the only one contradicting yourself and over-promoting low cost imports. You must own one of those imported tool stores on eBay or something

    May be one of the DRO dealers/installers on this forum can shed a light on how long does it usually take to confirm the scale is faulty, and then properly replace it, align, secure cables, and verify performance? Oh yeah, and that Chinese scale you bought 3 years ago is either no longer available, so you have to get a different brand, or the same manufacturer decided to change mounting holes, so you have to modify brackets too.

    And sorry to disappoint, but $250 product is never a match for $1,000+ system, just like $18 HF caliper is not a direct competitor to $136 Mitutoyo unit. Many people tried those and got burned, few learned nothing from their mistakes, most did and came to ZS, Heidenhain, Mitutoyo, Newall, Fagor etc. Saw quite an increase in that category of customers lately. And we are being open and honest about each system and have not stated any single fact which has not been verified by our own experience. In the end, its up to a customer if they want to go low cost route, but at least we don't mislead or give them false hopes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    we are drawing the line at discussing manual "home shop grade" Asian machine tools and hand tools.

    The discouragement of HSM grade Asian machine discussion is partially because they have all ready been discussed to death here, and partically because they are not used (or at shouldn't be) in any manufacturing/job shop environments.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsinstruments View Post
    And sorry to disappoint, but $250 product is never a match for $1,000+ system, just like $18 HF caliper is not a direct competitor to $136 Mitutoyo unit. Many people tried those and got burned, few learned nothing from their mistakes, most did and came to ZS, Heidenhain, Mitutoyo, Newall, Fagor etc. Saw quite an increase in that category of customers lately. And we are being open and honest about each system and have not stated any single fact which has not been verified by our own experience. In the end, its up to a customer if they want to go low cost route, but at least we don't mislead or give them false hopes.
    Who said it's a MATCH?? Nobody with any common sense expects it to be. You are full of shit.You need to spend some money and buy some advertising on this site instead of trolling all the DRO threads with your self biased BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkmc View Post
    Who said it's a MATCH?? Nobody with any common sense expects it to be.
    Contradicting yourself again? If it's not a match, it's not a competitor. People shopping for BMW will not consider KIA. And we have not advertised anything at first, simply shared the facts about $250 El cheapo DROs, and those facts are based on our real life experience dealing with thousands of them. Most people had very similar experience and will agree.

    And instead of asking any constructive questions, your first reply included profanity and personal attacks. So who is biased here? You really need to grab a beer and chill out

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    I have a Mitutoyo KA 2 axis unit on my big Webb Mill. It's been working fine for about 8 years now. That one was on sale for $850 on eBay. At the same time, I installed a Mitutoyo Digimatic 6" Z scale on the Mill and it works as advertised with no problems in the past 8 years either.

    On my old clunker 13 X 40 lathe, I installed a SINO 2 axis DRO about 7 years ago. That was $350 from CDCO. After about 6 months, the X scale cable burned up in the middle of the scale, apparently due to a short circuit.

    Contacting what's his name at CDCO about my one year warranty, he accused me of using coolant on the lathe and thereby damaging the scale. I don't use coolant. He refused to honor his advertised one year warranty but after some bickering he sold me one at half price. Thanks for nothing.

    I've had no problems with the unit since then. The problem was not so much with the unit itself but rather with the seller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman109 View Post
    I have a Mitutoyo KA 2 axis unit on my big Webb Mill. It's been working fine for about 8 years now. That one was on sale for $850 on eBay. At the same time, I installed a Mitutoyo Digimatic 6" Z scale on the Mill and it works as advertised with no problems in the past 8 years either.

    On my old clunker 13 X 40 lathe, I installed a SINO 2 axis DRO about 7 years ago. That was $350 from CDCO. After about 6 months, the X scale cable burned up in the middle of the scale, apparently due to a short circuit.

    Contacting what's his name at CDCO about my one year warranty, he accused me of using coolant on the lathe and thereby damaging the scale. I don't use coolant. He refused to honor his advertised one year warranty but after some bickering he sold me one at half price. Thanks for nothing.

    I've had no problems with the unit since then. The problem was not so much with the unit itself but rather with the seller.

    Err, a scale should be able to be used on a lathe that runs coolant anyway... that's some B.S.

    At the last shop I worked in, they had Sony DROs on all the lathes, and they were and are still used with flood coolant every day. Those readouts were installed before I started working there in 1999. They are still using them today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eKretz View Post
    Err, a scale should be able to be used on a lathe that runs coolant anyway... that's some B.S.
    Coolant can dry on glass and create a thin film that can cause weird issues. Simply cleaning the glass with Q tips and alcohol could probably fix the issue.

    If your sony was the magnetic kind, that is why you dont have issues. Its one of the main questions I always ask on a lathe when recommending a brand or product is if theyre gonna run heavy coolant.

    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by eKretz View Post
    Err, a scale should be able to be used on a lathe that runs coolant anyway... that's some B.S.

    At the last shop I worked in, they had Sony DROs on all the lathes, and they were and are still used with flood coolant every day. Those readouts were installed before I started working there in 1999. They are still using them today.

    I agree and I've seen many lathes and Mills running coolant with no issues on DRO's. The problem for me is that the guy at CDCO doesn't like to help out when there is a warranty problem. He's on my permanent shit-list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HWElecRepair View Post
    Coolant can dry on glass and create a thin film that can cause weird issues. Simply cleaning the glass with Q tips and alcohol could probably fix the issue.

    If your sony was the magnetic kind, that is why you dont have issues. Its one of the main questions I always ask on a lathe when recommending a brand or product is if theyre gonna run heavy coolant.

    Jon
    Absolutely, I have taken apart plenty for cleaning. Biggest one for me was a Heidenhain 120" glass tape scale. Every time it got a bit dirty it would start erroring out. Luckily that was only every couple of years or so. Got to watch out for proper tension on reassembly with those too.

    Anyway, machine tools are dirty messy environments. Erroring due to a little dirt is no big deal as long as the readout lets you know about it. Shorting out is a problem.

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    Oooh! Profanity! And Personal attacks! I'm sorry Mam, I thought you were a dude. That explains a lot anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by zsinstruments View Post
    Contradicting yourself again? If it's not a match, it's not a competitor. People shopping for BMW will not consider KIA. And we have not advertised anything at first, simply shared the facts about $250 El cheapo DROs, and those facts are based on our real life experience dealing with thousands of them. Most people had very similar experience and will agree.

    And instead of asking any constructive questions, your first reply included profanity and personal attacks. So who is biased here? You really need to grab a beer and chill out

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    I'm a little reluctant to weigh into this thread since it's become such a pissing contest, but here goes.
    I have a personal shop and work in a R&D lab, so have about a dozen DRO units under my care ranging from Heidenheim to generic "Chinese junk" and another few dozen encoders as parts of instrumentation so not a huge sample but some opportunities to compare and contrast.

    Top level:
    If you budget allows it, I'm sure the expensive units are worth it. If you are tight on funds, it's pretty amazing you get anything that even mostly works for under $300. A modern Mercedes and Kia will both get you to work on time most of the time and you see both on tow trucks sometimes. Are they the same, no. I'd rather be in a frontal collision in the Mercedes and I'd prefer to pay for an alternator for the Kia.
    A little further down:
    Large chunck of the "best" setups are still made cheap with Chinese parts. I've seen failures in Heidenheim equipment as well as everything else, in my small shops I can't draw valid statistical information to say how often each are but it's not enough that the expensive ones pay for themselves in the long run as near as I can tell. The fit and finish on the nicer brands is, well nicer, and the user-interface is often a bit better thought out. I suspect but can't prove that the better brands are more precise but if your shop isn't climate controlled you might have as much inaccuracy from the temperature in your machine and work as from the instrumentation as one example. Spindle runout, lubricant temperature, how your tools are ground, all sorts of things happen once you start getting interested in really good accuracy and controlling for that in your DRO is worth the extra money if you are chasing that extra digit for sure. A lot of work gets done where +/-.005' is more than good enough too.
    It's still a somewhat free country, buy what you like, can afford, and that you think will serve your needs.
    Now, can the 30YO single-malt crowd and the domestic beer drinkers all quit acting like there isn't a place in the world for each other, play nice, and quit wasting our time please?

    I did find this thread because I had a question...
    I don't much care for the looks of the modern DRO displays, particularly on my older machines and mostly us my CNC mills for things like bolt-circles and such, so don't need all the niceties new displays provide. With that in mind I'd like to figure out a way to use new scales with old readouts. Since the resolution of modern scales is good and the old machines are pretty loose I was rather hoping I could use, just as an example, an old Sargon LED-based head with real (if inferior) buttons with some sort of budget scale. Any suggestion about how to make this happen would be welcome.

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    5 years ago I bought & installed a Jenix DRO for one BP; glass scales, 3 axis (knee), made in Korea. Zero issues. Display is robust, cable plugs are metal...totally impressed. I believe it was Linear Measuring Systems(?) who sold it to me through eBay.

    LAST 2 WEEKS I have been fighting my just-installed Newall DP700 on a Monarch lathe. The frustrating thing is screen flicker issues that have improved, but not gone away. I have so far changed the power adapter, DC plug (3 times) which would only randomly ground to case, ghetto rigged multiple grounding setups to troubleshoot, and waited for missing parts. Microsyn scales are nice, but I’m getting impatient with it still not working properly. After the 2-1/2 month wait from purchase to install (factory was backed up), I installed it flawlessly (OCD flawlessly!) and now have constant issues.

    NOT to bash Newall; customer service has been SOOO helpful. They have overnight shipped parts back and forth the past 10 days, and communicated excellently. I just hope this issue will be resolved, and I can trust it. Flickers that include the diameter numbers changing is not good.

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    Using new scales with an old position display can be fine in many cases, but it can get expensive in some cases. I have an old Sony LH52 I was planning to do that with but by the time I got new scales and the necessary adapters, at the price I was given I'd be better off getting a whole new setup. Watching eBay now for older scales. If they don't show up that's the avenue I'll have to take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teletech View Post
    I'm a little reluctant to weigh into this thread since it's become such a pissing contest, but here goes.

    If you budget The fit and finish on the nicer brands is, well nicer, and the user-interface is often a bit better thought out.

    It's still a somewhat free country, buy what you like, can afford, and that you think will serve your needs.
    Now, can the 30YO single-malt crowd and the domestic beer drinkers all quit acting like there isn't a place in the world for each other, play nice, and quit wasting our time please?

    I did find this thread because I had a question...
    I don't much care for the looks of the modern DRO displays, particularly on my older machines and mostly us my CNC mills for things like bolt-circles and such, so don't need all the niceties new displays provide. With that in mind I'd like to figure out a way to use new scales with old readouts. Since the resolution of modern scales is good and the old machines are pretty loose I was rather hoping I could use, just as an example, an old Sargon LED-based head with real (if inferior) buttons with some sort of budget scale. Any suggestion about how to make this happen would be welcome.
    Im not sure you would get any more accuracy just swapping out scales, unless you are having problems with them I wouldn't bother, especially if the machines are "loose". find out the type and resolution of the ones you have. there might be no benefit at all. most of the improvements are in the readers, the scales haven't really changed much in technology, (except some finer res magnetic scales, but think you need new readers to match).

    having said that, most would rather have a new box! funny, I can't think of an old one that inspires nostalgia for "an age gone by" "oh those LED displays, how i miss them.."

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    Quote Originally Posted by teletech View Post
    I was rather hoping I could use, just as an example, an old Sargon LED-based head with real (if inferior) buttons with some sort of budget scale. Any suggestion about how to make this happen would be welcome.
    We do this all the time. No need to replace the whole system if only 1 component is faulty. If the scale is defective, we typically install a matching connector on one of our scales and wire it to work with an older display. Plug & Play solution. Most major brands are supported, including Sargon. Can also go other way around and make adapters to replace failed display with a modern one without having to buy new scales.

    Display settings for resolution have to match the encoder, or it will not read correctly (e.g. double of actual movement). Most common resolution is 5um, while some older ones were 10um. Fortunately, most readouts, even really old ones have a way to change resolution via menu or DIP switches.

    If you are comfortable soldering a few small wires, you can even swap the connectors yourself. Most pinouts are publicly available. Sargon needs a scale with a single ended TTL quadrature output

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    This is encouraging, thanks. I guess I'll grab some random old display and try my luck then. I actually saw one recently that still is using nixie tubes! :-)
    When you say most pinouts are available, I don't suppose there is a resource you could point me to for a bunch of them? Indeed, I am quite comfortable soldering smaller pitch connectors and such so no issues there.

    Quote Originally Posted by zsinstruments View Post
    We do this all the time. No need to replace the whole system if only 1 component is faulty. If the scale is defective, we typically install a matching connector on one of our scales and wire it to work with an older display. Plug & Play solution. Most major brands are supported, including Sargon. Can also go other way around and make adapters to replace failed display with a modern one without having to buy new scales.

    Display settings for resolution have to match the encoder, or it will not read correctly (e.g. double of actual movement). Most common resolution is 5um, while some older ones were 10um. Fortunately, most readouts, even really old ones have a way to change resolution via menu or DIP switches.

    If you are comfortable soldering a few small wires, you can even swap the connectors yourself. Most pinouts are publicly available. Sargon needs a scale with a single ended TTL quadrature output

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    zs, while your here: i have a dro with haidenhain scales where one axis consistently show 75% of the real value. problem is in the box. any thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by teletech View Post
    This is encouraging, thanks. I guess I'll grab some random old display and try my luck then. I actually saw one recently that still is using nixie tubes! :-)
    When you say most pinouts are available, I don't suppose there is a resource you could point me to for a bunch of them? Indeed, I am quite comfortable soldering smaller pitch connectors and such so no issues there.
    Ahh, you don’t have it set up, got it.

    Now a tube readout is something I can really get behind! If you make that work, post a thread on that for sure!!


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