Monarch collet chucks

dinotom · Mar 9, 2021

I bought another collet chuck because I like taking them apart, cleaning them thoroughly and putting them back together. They work so well when they are clean. I either re-sell them or keep them to swap for something else.

Anyway, the one I bought was advertised on Ebay as a D1-3 (which it is) 2J Collet chuck (It isn't) it is a 2A collet chuck. I am not a machinist so this question WILL be stupid. The 2J collets do work (fit and tighten) in the chuck, can you use 2J collets safely in this chuck?

rimcanyon · Mar 9, 2021

dinotom said:
I bought another collet chuck because I like taking them apart, cleaning them thoroughly and putting them back together. They work so well when they are clean. I either re-sell them or keep them to swap for something else.

Anyway, the one I bought was advertised on Ebay as a D1-3 (which it is) 2J Collet chuck (It isn't) it is a 2A collet chuck. I am not a machinist so this question WILL be stupid. The 2J collets do work (fit and tighten) in the chuck, can you use 2J collets safely in this chuck?

I'm not an expert on all things Sjogren. Peter Haas was, but he seldom visits the forum any more. I think that the original Sjogren collet chucks were all 2J, and other sizes were aded later. Could be wrong. But anyway, they did not bother to put the collet size on the chuck. A 2AD3 Sjogren collet chuck was for 2J collets and had an integral D1-3 back. I don't know what the A stood for. So you likely have a normal 2J collet chuck.

-Dave

Cal Haines · Mar 9, 2021

Hardinge Sjogren collet chucks, with the exception of the 5C, used J-series collets (from 1J to 35J). The Sjogren chucks with integral D1-3 backs were available for 5C, 1J or 2J collets. No. 2 chucks all use 2J collets. I don't believe that a Sjogren 2A collet chuck was available. 2A collets are much smaller than a 2J (0.860" vs. 1.625 OD) link, so what you have is undoubtedly a 2J chuck. Here's a link to a Hardinge-Sjogren Speed Collet Chuck catalog at Vintage Machinery that will provide additional information: link

Cal

daryl bane · Mar 10, 2021

I just looked at mine which is absolutely a 2J Sjogren and it is marked 2AD3

rimcanyon · Mar 10, 2021

I think the A in 2AD3 means small handwheel. I have two other Sjogren 2J collet chucks. The one with the large 9" handwheel is just a "No. 2", the one with a small handwheel and a backing plate for mounting on a mill table is a 2A-1B.

Cal Haines · Mar 10, 2021

rimcanyon said:
I think the A in 2AD3 means small handwheel. ...

You're right! If you look on the right side of the page 6 of the catalog that I linked to, there's a note to that effect.

My chuck, which is from about 1941, is stamped "No. 2-A".

Cal

rimcanyon · Mar 10, 2021

One thing I am curious about is the #1 Sjogren chuck. From what I have read, that is for a Jacobs #1 collet. However, I frequently see them listed as 5C collet chucks. Do 5C and 1J collets share the same diameter and threads, i.e will a 5C collet fit in a #1 Sjogren chuck and actually tighten correctly? The Sjogren 5C collet chucks say 5C on them.

Hardinge Sjogren No 1 5C Speed Collet 1-1/2-8 atlas craftsman lathe backplate | eBay

Hardinge Sjogren No 1 5C Speed Collet | eBay

Sjogren Hardinge NO 1 speed collet chuck D1-3 mount 5C | eBay

Cal Haines · Mar 11, 2021

rimcanyon said:
One thing I am curious about is the #1 Sjogren chuck. From what I have read, that is for a Jacobs #1 collet. However, I frequently see them listed as 5C collet chucks. Do 5C and 1J collets share the same diameter and threads, i.e will a 5C collet fit in a #1 Sjogren chuck and actually tighten correctly? The Sjogren 5C collet chucks say 5C on them.

When you say "Jacobs #1 collet", I assume you mean 1J collets. I don't know, did Jacobs develop the J-series collets (1J, 2J, etc.)?

According to the catalog. The No. 5C collet chuck was for 5C collets and the No. 1 for 1J collets. 1J and 5C collets are very similar and even have the same OD and thread. 1Js are a bit shorter than 5Cs and have a different nose taper, so a No. 1 chuck wouldn't work with 5C collets and vise versa. link

There's going to be some unhappy eBay customers when they try to use their 5C collets in those No. 1 Sjogren chucks! (I suppose that it's possible that the chucks have been modified to take 5Cs, who knows?)

edit: According to this link, a 5C collet will tighten up in a Sjogren No. 1, 1J chuck, but it's not a good idea for general use, since the tapers are different.

Cal

rimcanyon · Mar 11, 2021

Yes, I meant 1J. Not Jacobs.

Cal Haines · Mar 13, 2021

Here's a link to my post in General relating to J-series collets and the development of the Sjogren Speed Chuck:

Who developed the J-series collets (1J, 2J, 3j, etc.)

Cal

dinotom · Mar 14, 2021

So I found the right one on eBay, A No.2-A.
There are three things that are strange about it.

1. It doesn't have a grease zerk, it has an oil port.
2. The back plate is stamped EE10444.
3. It has a wooden rim handle (looks like black walnut)

Did Monarch ever sell these as add on items?

When re-assembling it after I serviced it, I used machine tool oil instead of grease since it was clearly set up for oil as the backplate and closing part had oil grooves in them.

Given the oil port and wooden rim handle can one assume this is a much older version?

I am going to email Terrie tomorrow and inquire about the stamped part.

Completed, serviced, like new

Tighter view

Monarch_10EE_Image_No2-A_SjogrenChuck#2.jpg

All parts thoroughly cleaned up

Monarch_10EE_Image_No2-A_SjogrenChuck#3.jpg

The back plate with the Monarch part number stamp

rimcanyon · Mar 15, 2021

Tom, did you do a search to see if EE10444 has ever been discussed on this forum? 10444 is probably a 1941 machine. I have a 2A chuck which is stamped EE8719, also a late 1940 or 1941 machine. It has a pair of screws on the front that say OIL, and no GITS fitting like the later ones have.

Did you replace the felts? I bought some replacement felts from Hardinge recently and was really really disappointed in the quality of the parts. The felt looked like it had been cut with blunt scissors by a kindergartner, and it was too short. I complained to Hardinge about it and never got a reply. The picture below shows the originals in the center with its replacement above or below it.

dinotom · Mar 15, 2021

Dave,

Interesting, so you think the 10444 indicates the serial machine that the chuck came on. That makes sense given the one you have and its different marking. I replaced the larger felts in the ones I just serviced since I had felt of similar width. I cut it out with an X-Acto knife with a new blade, it worked ok. The narrow ones I just cleaned up as best I could and re-used.

Steve in SoCal · Mar 15, 2021

I have seen a few Chucks with wood rims over the years. They may have been a "field repair" however, given the time frame of their origin, perhaps a war effort? Rubber was a strategic commodity and the early war years saw some very creative solutions to scarce resources.

One Sjogren chuck I saw on ebay years ago looked like it had a teak segmented rim riveted like a steering wheel.

Steve

Cal Haines · Mar 15, 2021

dinotom said:
... so you think the 10444 indicates the serial machine that the chuck came on. ...

Definately. Monarch stamped the serial number of the machine on rests and spindle-nose tooling that they provided with a machine.

rimcanyon said:
... I have a 2A chuck which is stamped EE8719, also a late 1940 or 1941 machine. It has a pair of screws on the front that say OIL, and no GITS fitting like the later ones have.

... I bought some replacement felts from Hardinge recently and was really really disappointed in the quality of the parts. The felt looked like it had been cut with blunt scissors by a kindergartner, and it was too short. ...

...

View attachment 316485

View attachment 316484

Dave,

You appear to have an earlier model chuck, based on the original Sjogren patent, number 1,789,601, issued Jan 20, 1931. My best guess, based on the serial number, is that EE8719 was built towards the end 1940 (which was about the time the inline exciter machines started to show up). Sjogren applied for a patent on a revised version of the chuck on July 26, 1940 and received US patent 2,293,176 on Aug 18, 1942. The 1931 patent has a longer nose than the 1942 version.

I have the No. 2A chuck from EE9769, which was probably built in early 1941. My chuck has a shorter nose and appears to be based on the 1942 patent. It's stamped "PAT.NO.1789601--OTHER PAT.PEND." Mine also has screw holes marked "OIL" and no Gits fitting. The nose of my chuck extends about 2-1/4" from the stamped surface with the SHCSs. How about yours?

If your chuck is an earlier version, that could explain why the felts were the wrong size. I'll e-mail PDFs of the patents to you.

DinoTom, Could you post a close up of the patent number(s) for your chuck.

Cal

rimcanyon · Mar 15, 2021

Cal Haines said:
Dave,

You appear to have an earlier model chuck, based on the original Sjogren patent, number 1,789,601, issued Jan 20, 1931. My best guess, based on the serial number, is that EE8719 was built towards the end 1940 (which was about the time the inline exciter machines started to show up). Sjogren applied for a patent on a revised version of the chuck on July 26, 1940 and received US patent 2,293,176 on Aug 18, 1942. The 1931 patent has a longer nose than the 1942 version.

I have the No. 2A chuck from EE9769, which was probably built in early 1941. My chuck has a shorter nose and appears to be based on the 1942 patent. It's stamped "PAT.NO.1789601--OTHER PAT.PEND." Mine also has screw holes marked "OIL" and no Gits fitting. The nose of my chuck extends about 2-1/4" from the stamped surface with the SHCSs. How about yours?

If your chuck is an earlier version, that could explain why the felts were the wrong size. I'll e-mail PDFs of the patents to you.

DinoTom, Could you post a close up of the patent number(s) for your chuck.

Cal

Cal, I have some additional Sjogren 2A-D3 chucks and a #2 chuck, all of them take the same size felts. I purchased three sets of felts from Hardinge, all of them were too short and extremely imprecise as to width and the wrong thickness. All of them have 2 ¼" noses, even the #2.

dinotom · Mar 16, 2021

I agree, it looks aftermarket, but very well made. I am actually going to send them out to a friend to make me a new set out of bubinga.

dinotom · Mar 16, 2021

Cal, Here are the 2 images of my two Sjogrens. They both have the 1789601 serial number.

dinotom · Mar 19, 2021

Thanks for the Nardi link. I'd prefer the hardened rubber material. I guess I should look on the Hardinge website to see how extravagantly priced a new rim handle is.
I rather like the feel of this wooden handle but I agree with the potential safety concerns and I'm beyond the age of stepping out of bounds.

Monarch collet chucks

Aluminum

Diamond

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Aluminum

Diamond

Aluminum

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Aluminum

Aluminum

Aluminum

Similar threads