Opinions wanted on Heavy 10 condition

[Cdavid]

All: I am new to the forum. I am in the market to buy my first lathe and, armed with a little wisdom I gained from reading posts in this forum, I was able to somewhat competently inspect a machine today. I walked away from it, but would like your opinions on if I was being too critical.

It was a South Bend heavy 10. The ways looked decent. There was a very slight ridge on one of the V’s in the high wear area, but not enough for my fingernail to really grab. I also found a very, very slight ridge on the underside of the end stock. Cross slide had about ½ turn in backlash, and got more difficult to turn after passing the halfway point of its travel. If I positioned the carriage a little back from the headstock and tightened the carriage lock and backed off just enough for it to travel, the carriage got tight as I cranked it to the tail of the machine. Quick change gear lever needed to be held just right to get it to slide, which I figure is due to a worn bushing somewhere. No gears had any missing teeth. Lead screw had no variation in thread appearance across its length.

Now for the part that caused me to walk away. The cover on the lead screw end near the quick change gear box had been broken and brazed back together. I also found a crack in the apron on the headstock side. See photos:


I imagine these two damaged parts were the result of some bad occurrence. I could probably braze the crack in the apron, but I am worried that there might be some damage lurking elsewhere from the apparent incident that has yet to be discovered.

What would you experienced people conclude from my findings? The machine ran nice, and everything operated. Was I wrong to walk away from it? Is the apron crack not a big deal, and something that should just be brazed and forgotten about? Is the carriage binding as it moves to the rear of the machine when the lock is barley released while at the front indicative of serious wear that is not obvious to the eye?

I thank you for any thought you can offer. They would be valuable to me.

 

[Rob F.]

Not a south bend owner but it does not sound to be horrible. Add your location to your profile so we know where you are.
Is it hard to find machines near you, or are there plenty to choose from?
The other thing that will be helpful is knowing how much the seller is asking. Does the price reflect the "normal wear and the yet to be repaired crack?
Also what else comes with it?

 

[Erich]

The wear you describe is not unreasonable for a 60+ year old lathe. You can do a lot of nice work with a lathe with that much wear. But the crack in the apron would make the lathe a hard pass for me. Can you deal with the issue? Sure, but why take on the problem when you can keep looking.

 

[Cdavid]

Thank you for the prompt replies!

@Rob F. The machine comes with 40+ collets (can't imagine why so many), regular closer, 2 milling attachments, 2 center rests, just a 3 jaw chuck, some dogs, maybe 3 drill chucks, a live center, a few dead centers, 2 knurlers, 2 micrometer carriage stops, lantern post with a bunch of tool holders, some high speed steel.

The machine is a 10 heavy toolroom lathe with a 4 1/2 bed, which seems unusual. I looked at all the old catalogs, and the 10 inch toolroom machines top out a 4'. Maybe this was a special order machine.

At this point in negotiations, we are at $1,300, but, since I walked away, they said they would bargain further.

The accessories are certainly attractive, but if the base machine is questionable, what good are they to me. Yes, I could probably buy the thing and make money parting it out, but that is not what I want to spend my time on. I just want to start out with a good reliable machine that my son and I can learn on. I am still mentally recovering from missing a Clausing 5914 for $750 by one day because someone snagged it before my appointment to see it.

@Erich I just found a replacement apron for $250. I obviously thought like you because I walked away. It probably is reasonable wear, but I was scared about making an uniformed mistake. I know woodworking equipment but have zero experience with metal lathes.

I do have a general question: once you get up into 14" plus swing lathes, do you sacrifice accuracy on turning smaller parts?

 

[SLK001]

What is that red thing over the lead screw in the second pick?

 

[Cdavid]

@SLK001 That is the part that was broken and brazed back together. I removed it for inspection because it looked odd, and figured out what was going on. They put back together the major pieces and spray painted it I guess with whatever they had on hand. Here is what it is supposed to look like:

 

[texasgeartrain]

Like SLK001, I was wondering about the thing by lead screw. Looking a Brad Jacob's restore pics, he had that also Post #58:

Heavy 10 Restoration

Impressed Service??????? [QUOTE= I hang my head in guilt. What often happens is that they come down while I'm trying to make some progress and they jump in and want to help. QUOTE] WHAT??????? Are there no "Child Labor Laws" in PA.? Volunteer, Ha! We just can't see the sign posted in...

www.practicalmachinist.com

The crack on apron is where a Gits oiler goes, someone either banged the oiler, or cracked the housing getting it out.

$1300 is not a bad price these days, especially getting some accessories.

Any old machine will have some wear. Some worse than others. A low wear or no wear machine won't be $1300 though.

Another question from post #4, you wont lose accuracy on small parts due to 13",14.5", to 16" swing lathes in of itself. I'd argue you might gain actually. Greater weight, leverage, and stability in general terms on a larger lathe, ie greater wing span on carriage, heavier bed with less twist, heavier more rigid tail stock etc. In terms of South Bends, spindle speeds will be roughly the same from smaller to larger. Using collets for small work, or mounting a smaller 4 jaw chuck helps with small work on a larger lathe.

 

[SLK001]

@SLK001 That is the part that was broken and brazed back together. I removed it for inspection because it looked odd, and figured out what was going on. They put back together the major pieces and spray painted it I guess with whatever they had on hand. Here is what it is supposed to look like:

Again, I'll ask "what does it do?", because it seems to serve no purpose. It's not shown as being part of the gear box in the below assy drawing. It is shown in old catalogs only on the heavy 10" models and not on the larger lathes with like gear boxes.

 

[Cdavid]

@SLK001 Being that the only knowledge I have about metal lathes is what I have gained over the past few months, I have no idea what practical purpose that "guard" serves. When I removed it for inspection, I saw that it did nothing but cover the end of the lead screw. Your discovery that it is not included on other models is interesting. I am not at all concerned that the piece is brazed, I just wonder if something bad happened. Maybe someone just had it off to service the machine and stepped on it.

@texasgeartrain 's comment about the crack being related to the oiler hole makes sense. My initial fear was that it was related to the broken guard thing, but I don't see how that would likely be the case as the carriage apron could not travel that close to it.

My major worry about the machine is if it has an acceptable amount of wear, and that it can still produce accurate parts. The difference in tightening the carriage lock between the worn part of the ways and closer to the tail stock is about a quarter of a turn. I would like to find the best machine within my budget. Whatever I get has a tricky path to my basement workshop that I would not want to repeat frequently.

 

[DanAl]

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My major worry about the machine is if it has an acceptable amount of wear, and that it can still produce accurate parts. The difference in tightening the carriage lock between the worn part of the ways and closer to the tail stock is about a quarter of a turn. I would like to find the best machine within my budget. Whatever I get has a tricky path to my basement workshop that I would not want to repeat frequently.

Seems to me that a quarter of a turn may be a bit much. As an example, my 1941 9a (4.5 bed length) has way wear that I have to make up for by adding slight twist to the bed for work closer to the headstock (almost zero taper over about 4" unsupported). But, my carriage lock only turns a little over 1/16" in the travel from one end to the other.

 

[Cdavid]

@DanAl That is kind of what I was thinking. I took out the carriage lock screw and saw that the threads were fairly coarse, so a 1/4 turn might be a significant variance.

 

[jim rozen]

Agree the fracture on the side of the apron looks suspiciously like a wrong sized oiler being forced into place. Until the saddle is taken off the apron, no way to know for sure.

 

[Cdavid]

@jim rozen thank you for weighing in on the likely cause of the crack. I did find a new apron for $250 from a guy that is parting out a heavy 10 if need be. I think my biggest fear at this point is if the machine is worn out. I am guessing I could get the seller down to $1,000, but it is not a deal at any price if it is a sloppy mess to use. Should I just be patient and keep searching? I really don't want anything that has less than 32" between centers. I like the larger bore on the heavy 10. I would go anywhere up to a 16" swing if the machine could be stripped down into small enough components that I could get down my basement without anyone getting killed. I also would like something that is not impossible to find parts for. I would have to have a serious family meeting if I were to venture north of $1,500 to buy a lathe. It would have to be exceptional, and even then it would be tough, because, naturally, I also see a milling machine purchase in my future .

 

[mattthemuppet]

That apron crack would worry me, though I don't know what effect out would have on the various bores/ fits in the apron. It might be possible to pin and screw it if it's not critical.

Be aware for any replacement aprons that things may be different for different years of that lathe.

I'd take that on as a project for a grand. I wouldn't be worried about wear elsewhere, it won't make a huge difference to you starting out

 

[Cdavid]

@mattthemuppet I appreciate your opinion. If I did take it on, I think I might attempt to grind it out a bit and braze it. I realize I would have to heat the whole casting up as a part of the process. I taught my 14 year old son to braze steel to cast iron last weekend on a wood lathe we are restoring, and he is better than me on his first attempt. One of the big incentives for me to pursue learning machining is so my son and I can share a journey together.

 

[mattthemuppet]

If you have that capability then go for it. They're great lathes, it doesn't sound particularly worn and it comes with as ton of tooling. One of those milling attachments will get you $300+.

 

[mjr6550]

Really good old lathes are hard to find, especially if you are only looking close to home. That price seems decent, especially considering whar comes with the lathe. Milling attachments sell for a bit of money. If you have an extra you could sell it. One nice thing about South Bend lathes is that there are ton of used parts available, and the prices are generally less than for many other lathes.

The apron does look bad. If it does not affect the function you could use the lathe and search for a better replacement. You should be able to find a replacement that is in far better external condition, but you never know until you get it whether everything inside is fine. Your apron may have good parts inside.

If you can find a very good old lathe with tooling for a good price, that's great, but you could spend years looking. And when deals like that some up on Craigslist or wherever they go fast.

 

[Cdavid]

All: I thank you for being generous in offering advice to a newbie. The seller of the machine won't come off $1,300, so I am going to sit this one out. For some reason, call it intuition, I just did not bond with this machine. If it turned out to be a dud, I would be kicking myself for not going with my gut. Maybe I am missing out on a deal, but I can accept that easier than the sting of having wasted money.

My search continues. I am sure I will be back here soon in hopes that you will continue to share your wisdom.

 

[Peter.]

Again, I'll ask "what does it do?", because it seems to serve no purpose. It's not shown as being part of the gear box in the below assy drawing. It is shown in old catalogs only on the heavy 10" models and not on the larger lathes with like gear boxes.

It's a simple cover, nothing more.

 

[jim rozen]

Maybe that lathe was just not your lathe. You'll know when the right one comes along. =)